Heartless November 29, 2002 Share Heartless Member November 29, 2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower December 10, 2002 Share Watchtower Member December 10, 2002 How bout this... Back in the 1600's or so, a rogue army comes in and takes over your little village. They're methodically looting, and raping your women. You kill any one of them, u burn in eternity... Dont seem right. How bout all these guys that goto war and Have to kill someone. Tell them their going to hell.. or wait they wont cause some christian will think of some little way to turn some phrase into saying they wont.. Hmm. how bout that guy on one of the hijaaked flights that turns the boxcutter around on one of the hiijaakers.. THings shouldn't be so black and white. I'm not trying to make anyone mad here, but that's what you make me think about when there is supposed to be this universal method for determining right and wrong. Speak up. Open my eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gOOters December 10, 2002 Share gOOters Member December 10, 2002 good points. however, ask rev sometime. I believe the phrase that shall not kill in hebrew is more closely translated, "thall shall not murder" I am not the most learned peep here, so ask rev or someone, but I think that is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa December 10, 2002 Share Playaa Member December 10, 2002 yeah g00ts is right...the phrase in Hebrew is closer in meaning to "don't murder ppl" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower December 11, 2002 Share Watchtower Member December 11, 2002 Murder? Isn't killing? So all that mattered was the reason behind the killing? SO the fact that some war torn leader with ill intention orders his army to war. Those fighting for him.. because i feel or someone told me it was right to kill Cannot make it right. Hmm, i may need to to explain that a little more.. Lets pin this one down..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa December 11, 2002 Share Playaa Member December 11, 2002 murder is killing...but killing isn't murder... if it would be wrong to kill then mowing my lawn would be killing since according to science plants are alive... and each man has his own choices...if the leader of my country decides to start a war and kill millions of innocents and orders me to join the army...I have a choice of what to do...albeit that choice is not an easy one because it's my life against taking lives...but it is still MY choice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower December 11, 2002 Share Watchtower Member December 11, 2002 So you are saying that your religion would prevent you from going to war for your country? you dont have a choice.. if you get drafted, you have to go. Thousands of ppl that didnt want to goto war over the years have had to. you'll be a deserter and goto jail.. At least you wont goto hell huh? All those poor soldiers... Surely there is some way we can still get em in.. Or maybe hell really isnt that bad? This is getting interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa December 11, 2002 Share Playaa Member December 11, 2002 wrong... upon JOINING the armed forces you have MANY choices as to what career to pursue whilst enlisted. upon being DRAFTED into the army you only have 2 choices...Soldier or working in the Medical profession... one is a choice to kill the other is a choice to save lives upon being drafted I already know which one I'm choosing... so I say once again....man always has a choice... *EDIT 1* 2 more things....yes I could choose to be a draft dodger (not a deserter you must first join to be that) and no I wouldn't necessarily go to jail... in fact some draft dodgers grow up to be President of the United States................................... second..... At least you wont goto hell huh?  All those poor soldiers... Surely there is some way we can still get em in.. you show by this statement that you don't even understand Christianity... if I am a Christian and I MUST kill ppl in war....I'm still going to Heaven because our works do not get us to Heaven...it's all Faith.... same as someone who kills ppl then becomes a Christian....they will go to Heaven, past sins forgiven....works don't matter.... *EDIT 2* and also don't tell me that it's silly that someone could become a Christian and then go around killing ppl because "they're forgiven" because someone who is a TRUE Christian would NEVER EVER EVER kill someone and someone who is truely saved and has the Holy Spirit inside of them is convicted daily to do right and live life to perfection....though we all fail at it a true Christian lives life to improve so therefore a true Christian would find it about 99.999999999% impossible to murder someone...(though there is always the exception) *BACK TO EDIT 1* and don't try to give me some crap about "a Christian murderer going to Heaven and not a kind old woman who doesn't believe in a god is just unfair and stupid and not right" for 2 reasons. 1) you attempting to tell me that you could possibly know how to run the universe better than an all-powerful being is simply ludacris...humans can't even run their lives to perfection yet they think they know the best way to run an entire universe.... 2) you don't believe in any god....therefore you cannot believe in "right and wrong" because there is no greater power to answer to....therefore NOTHING is unfair and unjust and nothing is wrong... I find ppl who don't believe in a god yet talk about right and wrong to be horribly silly.... if there is nothing above you there is no one to tell you what is right therefore NOTHING is....and at the same time everything is... think through that argument for a bit....I could explain it better but don't want to take 3 pages for my own post and Watch thank you for the friendly debate....not many ppl (even in this community) can pull that off...myself included Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Slayer December 11, 2002 Share Shadow Slayer Member December 11, 2002 hey playaa i just want to thank you for standing up for your beliefs. its good to find somone who belives the way i do and isnt afraid to speak out. keep up the good work buddy. may the Lord bless you. S.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Orbital December 12, 2002 Share Guest Orbital Guests December 12, 2002 I am quite bewildered by all the p0o flinging. My two cents go into the slot [HERE]: Aren't all people created equally, I would imagine that no person is good or bad when they born, for good or bad are not in their vocabulary, it is only what is taught as they grow up, as the develop as a person. We are told what is wrong and what is right, we are not born with this knowledge. A human, any life form for that matter, adapts to their situation, some such as Playaa take on the belief very readily and strongly [Kudos to him bTw, fighting for what you believe in is truly a righteous act], and some don't [i.e. criminals]. So, I do not understand this whole Mental problem, a person is a person, made up of different parts, just as any of us reading/writing/or editing [Fatty ] these posts. It confuses and shocks me to think that someone would judge human life so readily. Aren't we all equal? What makes a person better then another person, for what they believe in? Is this not just condeming them a life they have not lived, or what they have not seen through YOUR eyes? ... [but, I am not talking about the moralistic unbreakable rules, such as bringing harm to someone else intentionally, in any case I would image that is wrong.] I might be 17, and not have gone throught the world as many of you [Old farts ] have, but.. it is to my knowledge of this world, that all are of the same fibers, cells, atoms. We are a race of people, no one should be treated differently in this life, or the next, solely based upon the physical characteristics of their being. I might be ignorant towards other religions on this, and I do very much apologize for that, but, how is it that anyone can judge another soul, because of their mental or physical disabilities. It is beyond me. Now.. for what has spawned from the original post, all beat it, I think EVERY post ever on this wonderful forum has gotten off-topic, and I think it is a sign of people just moving onward, talking about what spawns on from the oringal thought, but as long as it connects to the orginal thread, it is fine, but that's just me : Heaven, Nirvana, after-life, reincarnation, I would care less, if my country's vital securities are at stake, I will willing fight for my country. It has given me more oppuritunities, then I know my country of origin would have, I am not bashing where I come from, or who I am, I am very proud of that, but this is a country that has raised me, given me the freedom to think, the freedom to think and right upon this forum. I would imagine that every person that breathes, writes, thinks and blurts out his or her opinion [ignorant or knowledgbale] should be thankful for what they have, and I am not talking about the 4-5 days a year where everyone is off of work and celebrates and rejoices the people that have perished in the past, by going to a Macy's holiday sale. I know war can be a horrific sight, and it should be avoided, but if other people are at risk of being hurt, what are we to be selish and say, it is not my cause, the human race should be everyone's cause, everyone's first thought. It should be the first thing that comes to mind when someone thinks of the world they inhabit. If it is a worthy cause, I would gladly fight for my country, I would never engage in something like Vietnam, or WWI.. foolish causes for foolish people, not saying that the people who fought were honorable people for fighting for their countries, just, it is not in my belief. -Sorry if I got off topic, got in the heat of the moment- Have a gOOd day, Sincerely, Orb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest [DOH]TaPe December 12, 2002 Share Guest [DOH]TaPe Guests December 12, 2002 2) you don't believe in any god....therefore you cannot believe in "right and wrong" because there is no greater power to answer to....therefore NOTHING is unfair and unjust and nothing is wrong... I find ppl who don't believe in a god yet talk about right and wrong to be horribly silly.... if there is nothing above you there is no one to tell you what is right therefore NOTHING is....and at the same time everything is... how... please tell me HOW you can say that? honestly... I mean no offense to you, but talk about judging a group of people so generally... Just because somebody doesn't believe in greater being doesn't mean they have absolutely no moral values. Can't you believe that there is actually goodness inside some people? That they were brought up to do the 'right' things in life, to be a 'good' person... and have it done without forcing them to believe that they will go to hell or some other horrible place if they don't? You don't have to teach based on a punishment basis... best teaching is NOT done that way. Those with stronger beliefs and thost that hold to their beliefs with all their might are the ones who don't think about their own personal consequences. For example, somebody who goes out of their way to something good that will in turn, cause them some sort of damage. Such as putting your life on the line to save other lives, be it one or many. Are you telling me that anybody who is not a devout Christian would not choose to do the 'right' thing in situations... I not only find that hard to believe, but I'll deny that to the end. People can do the 'right' thing even if they don't think that there will be repercussions if they do the 'wrong' thing. People can have their own creed that they live by which gives them their own morals, which doesn't have to be based around one greater being who chooses whether you go to a place of eternal bliss vs some sort of hell. Please, I mean no offense directed at you, just extrapolate on your points for me if you will... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa December 12, 2002 Share Playaa Member December 12, 2002 Orbital...for a bit there I wasn't even sure what topic you were on...then I realized you were still talking about the origional one... we got off that one awhile ago... and Tape...you did misinterpret what I was saying....I wasn't saying someone who doesn't believe in a diety has NO morals....I was saying they have no ABSOLUTE morals... not saying they are evil ppl....(in fact I've known plenty of non-Christians who were nicer/better ppl that some who called themselves Christians...) I'll try to explain better what I'm saying. I believe in a one true all-powerful God who created this universe...my morals come from him and I live and believe in right and wrong according to what he said was right and wrong...therefore my morals agree other believers in this said God... now say I don't believe in any god at all. Who tells me what rules to follow? (of course my parents raise me to follow their rules but I don't HAVE to do that...especially since they're views of right and wrong seem silly to me) So basically I tell myself what rules to follow. Since there is no one above me who created me to tell me what rules to follow then there is no one to tell me what is right or wrong. The point I'm trying to make (yet failing miserably) is that throughout life we get rules from those with more power than us. You all say that there are SOME completely true moral rules (i.e. Murder and I don't know what else you guys would say...) and you believe them to be true no matter what. The problem is this. Say I come along and I find absolutely nothing wrong with murder. You're going to disagree with me and say murder is just plain wrong. However, you're only basis of that is it's what you and alot of other ppl believe. But why do those ppl get to tell ME what's right? It's their life...they should stay out of mine. I don't believe that "might makes right" so I don't hafta follow the governments rules since they have no power over me. And them trying to force their power on me is wrong also in my views......................................................I'm losing my train of thought....I've tried to explain this so many times and it's clear in my head.....but I can't explain it well........... and I still feel as if I've explained myself horribly....if any of you aren't following me you really need to read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis...he explains it SO much better in the beginning of the book than I ever can... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hambone December 13, 2002 Author Share Hambone Member December 13, 2002 I disagree with your idea about no absolute morals. Assuming I'm interpreting "absolute" to mean ultimate, final, etc... then I have to disagree. What you need to define an "absolute" moral is a reference point. For Christians, it's God. God defines morals for you, that is the absolute. For a theist, atheist, non-deity-beileveing-person-generically, it's slightly more complicated, but don't eliminate the idea of a final morality principle such as God. God is a image you try to live up to and follow. For me, personally, I created my own image. As far as morals go, me and God don't differ too much. Ultimately though, I decide what is unadulterated good or evil. This probably sounds egotistic, if it weren't for the fact that I think, cosimcally, fairly little about myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower December 13, 2002 Share Watchtower Member December 13, 2002 Well and to say someone that dosen't believe in Jesus Christ cannot have morals or know right and wrong is semi-ridiculous. Do you have anyone in your family that is a very good person and not a Christian? Who are you to judge their morals and belief system? Hmm. I could answer that with one word and it starts with a C. All I was trying to point out was that in your system of "absolute morals" that killing under any circumstance was "wrong". The killing of the animals and plants is justified by the "herbs and beasts on the planet for mans use" passage. That basically we had free reign over what God put here. I dont know the passage specifically but that sums it up. Thats why I mentioned a time where killing another human being Could Possibly be the right thing to do. I don't like to say we know much of anything for certain. Especially stuff like that. And I'm sorry for saying that about the poor soldiers, I forgot the fact that they could just repent and everything would(might) be ok Hmmm. And to think that you live by something called an "absolute moral" system? Are you That knowledgeable about the bible and what it tells you to do? Do you base that belief on the 10 commandments? whilst living your life and making your decisions, are you constantly referring back to pages in the bible for answers or are you that certain? or the laws yer talking about are pretty much common sense type of stuff.. I dont know what I'm getting at here so do think i'm trying to antagonize, I'm just askin you to think about what you're saying.. the benefit you And me. Boy Fats gonna be mad at me nah, j/k.. *opinions stated within do not reflect the views of Mmmm in part or as a whole. Nor do included statements condone Killing(unless of digital sort), stealing, lying, raping, gouging, coveting, craving, gorging, binging, purging, drugging, doping, drinking, slapping, hitting, kicking, spitting or any other bad thing you could do. 2 more things after reading some more.. 1. i never said anything about something being absolutely moral or immoral. Including killing. Thats my argument. You are trying to make a distinction between killing and murder and that also is my argument. What about the stuff the bible Dosen't talk about that's bad and you obviously shouldn't do... 2. As far as war goes, I'd say that instead of seeing it as a forced action(going to war) you would want to to fight for what is yours if someone was trying to take it away from you. that's never happened to us so it's easy to have to have that sort of mindset. Just like you dont want to go over to afghanistan and get the Al Qaida.. now if they were in your backyard, knocking on your back door, that Might be a little different... no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower December 13, 2002 Share Watchtower Member December 13, 2002 Im gonna go one step further here just because.. how about sinning in a virtual environment? I'd say that just because you aren't actually doing it dosen't necessarily mean that it's right.. We dont have a word from God on this so i guess we wont know till we get there... What do you think and why.. feel free to address any other comments i've made... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConGregation December 13, 2002 Share ConGregation Member December 13, 2002 Try to re-read Playaa's post guys. I thought he explained it very well and yet you still dont understand it. As far as re-reading the Bible and constantly checking it to see if what we are doing is right, that is exactly what we do. I received my morals from God (the Bible). If you didnt get them from there than your either getting them from somewhere else or making them up as you go. I would also add man's nature. Sane people know some things are just wrong... So its either God, What you feel, aliens, or Richard Simmons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa December 13, 2002 Share Playaa Member December 13, 2002 Ham and Watch...I was basically saying what Hambone said... however I see a problem with every human being choosing their base set of morals based on just what they want...(sorry if I misinterpretted that Ham) and not based on what an authority over them decides..... but I guess you guys don't see the dilema in that situation.... as for the virtual klling thing you mentioned Watch....yes that CAN be wrong...the Bible even says that murder is in the heart....meaning if I'm so man at someone that I literally want to kill them....in God's eyes I just did....on the other end...if I'm playing a game and killing virtual characters yet have no malignent intent behind my actions...then it's just a game....however we've all seen ppl take games to far and those actions are indeed wrong... and on the note of knowing what's right and wrong that isn't specifically defined in the Bible.... Mathew 22:36 - 40 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." so in the past when I so angrily told Hambone Christianity is about love (apparently I'M an oxymoron...) that's what I was talking about... Love decides pretty much everything anyway....because something done out of true love of ppl is pretty much right... (p.s. and yeah on that note it was WRONG of me to get angry at Hambone) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gond December 13, 2002 Share Gond Member December 13, 2002 But you can get your values from society. My values come from the bible because those are the core values of the society I live in. I guess society could be considered a higher being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hambone December 13, 2002 Author Share Hambone Member December 13, 2002 Society is indeed a higher being. Morals originate from society. Human beings can be entirely self-suffiecient. In this case, there are no such things as morals. Why does there "need" to be? Right and Wrong are things from society. To coexist, humans need reference for behavior; the alternative is called anarchy, chaos. But right and wrong are animal instinct for social animals. Penguins don't gash at eachothers entrails perpetually, chimpanzes don't pick up rocks and beat against eachother spontaneously. Morality is another name for an evolutionary advantage of coexisting with other members of the specie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartless December 13, 2002 Share Heartless Member December 13, 2002 hm.. big words that i don't understand.. oh well.. im just gonna sit here and nod my head and smile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gond December 13, 2002 Share Gond Member December 13, 2002 chimpanzes don't pick up rocks and beat against eachother spontaneously. Well, cept for those dirty little monkeys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartless December 13, 2002 Share Heartless Member December 13, 2002 haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower December 17, 2002 Share Watchtower Member December 17, 2002 Oh my, had a whole thing typed up and someone closed my browser. Grr. I'm just gonna state some opinions here. they'll be out of order and not very thought thru but you can address them anyhow you wish. i'll start by saying i'm about done with this topic. We are basically going around in circles. 1st point. No matter how good of a christian you are, there are times when killing another human being will be justified. Killing animals shouldn't be exempt from your laws as they have souls/feelings as well, they just can't convey them as we do. Hambownage, the statement you made about the chimpanzees and what not copuldn't be farther from the truth. It has been seen that there is actually a somewhat high occurrance of violence among different animals. Apes have been known to band up and terrorize/maim/kill other Rival apes and tribes of apes. Or solo. There is also theivery, adultry, gluttony, neglect etc in different animals. They really arent that much different from us. 2 Society has no morals as a whole. Why do you think that everyday you see a murder, extortion, horriffic tales every day. I would even venture to say the majority of those ppl committing the crimes consider themselves christian. Its too easy to be a christian. To be told what to do and what to say. you dont have to tell me right and wrong. I think i've got a pretty good idea regardless. I've done good. I've done bad. Part of life. When you do bad, you know it. Thats about all i have.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UberNewb December 17, 2002 Share Guest UberNewb Guests December 17, 2002 Watch, one thing over here.. isn't adultry infidelity against the vows of marriage, because getting married is a holy unity? Well, animals can't commit adultry because they don't get married. Just thought I'd point that out. I'll go hide now before the religious types beat me up again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa December 17, 2002 Share Playaa Member December 17, 2002 first Uber...I thought us "religious types" have been pretty nice throughout most of this...so why think we'll beat you up? and to Watch... 1. Animals don't have souls OR feelings...they have instincts.... the difference between instincts and feelings is this....instincts will make you have pain and you will learn to stay away from fire....feelings make you love someone of the opposite sex and want to spend life with them.... instincts will make you kill for food (or sometimes kill for fun)....feelings will give you the compassion to put a dying animal out of it's mysery.... 2. it is not in fact easy to be a Christian...just saying you are one doesn't make you one....it takes actually understanding the life and living the life to make you a Christian 3. about killing....I would assume that yes there ARE times that killing would be justified in God's eyes...however like I was saying earlier about love...that encompasses everything... think about this... a man walks into my home and wants to kill my family. Most ppl would say I would be justified in killing him. However, if there is a way, love would make me want to take him out without killing him so that his life as well is preserved. Some ppl would call that idiocy...but love goes in all directions and I wouldn't want to see my family die, but I would also like to see this man live in case he would recieve another chance... I'm done for now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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