Minor Mayhem Kvetch

[Shropshire Slasher]

Played two nights this week on mayhem.

 

Both nights, I played, oh, about 3-4 maps.

 

It seemed as though on every map, one team or another went 10-1 in scores...

 

There are limits to how much control admins have over team balance. And to be fair, the first night the admins were asking specific folks to move around to balance. But, it does sorta become monotonous when you are on the losing end for 10 straight rounds. And last night (Thurs) I stuck it out on the losing end of 4 straight maps, and saw little effort made to balance teams.

 

Not a major gripe, just constructive criticism.

 

Respectfully,

Shropshire Slasher

 

*edit* imbalance

Edited April 8, 2005 by Shropshire Slasher

[bear^]

u are not the first person to notice this

 

i've been pointing this out almost every time i play

 

some refer to it as "whine'n"

 

to sum up the no swearing policy in GC servers...

it's there because it makes playing cs more enjoyable

 

so shouldnt admins (and non-admins alike) enforce fair teams just as much as the no swearing policy?

 

i'd like to see some noticable changes in the future, from everyone in the community

admins and regulars should both be setting an example, not whore'n up their stats

 

(im not flame'n anyone, or GC here, just offering my opinion cuz i think it will help in the long run)

[Fatty]

It's a public server.

 

Secondly, if you recall, when we had the ability to control it when AMX worked with 1.6, we ran a "skunk" plugin that would change the map at 7-0. We're requesting the same thing from Mani, the fellow who authors our current admin.

 

Bear: If you had admin, or decision-making power, suggest a couple ways that you would address this. What would your action plan be that would create some "noticable changes?"

 

Things to keep in mind:

 

-asking the people that pay for the servers to always be the ones to take the responsibility to make things "fair" means they just can't play anymore. Not saying they can't sometimes, just not always fun to have this responsibility. It's a responsibility nonetheless.

 

-forcing pubbers to change teams takes away from their experience.

 

-Many of us are quick to even the teams. But does that create a catch22, because once you do it a few times, you're the "goto team evener guy?"

 

-Is this a punishment for those that do well? Lead your team to victory...you should change teams (I can't tell you how frustrating it is to be the one to change over and then get destroyed for the rest of the map).

 

----------

 

The current answer (I addressed this in GC Admin forums 2 days ago): Admins have been instructed to move to the next map at 7-0 if the rounds continue to be obviously not even close and a comeback is not in sight....and at 10-0 no matter what.

 

Evening teams is a never-ending battle...so just use autoselect when you join a team, and hopefully the admins will be aware.

 

If there are no admins present....you're on your own because atm we have no automated skunk plugin.

[Shropshire Slasher]

It's a public server.

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Fatty... did I offend?

 

Didn't intend any offense.

Edited April 8, 2005 by Shropshire Slasher

[bear^]

i've seen it a zillion times

 

admins in servers, stacking

 

encourage them not too, and have admins encourage regs to help do the same

 

admins shouldnt have to "move" others, when they should be setting the example: switching teams when need be

 

ppl often forget cs is a team game, and get 2 involved with their pwn stats

 

the only stat that matters is ct & t wins

 

[Acid-Flux]

admins in servers, stacking

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I dont think it's a case of stacking on purpose. When I notice teams are uneaven i try to switch teams and there are other admins and regs out there that also switch. There are always going to be times when teams are uneven due to people leave/joining, and unfortunatly there is nothing you can do about it.

[Shropshire Slasher]

You points are certainly cogent.

 

-asking the people that pay for the servers to always be the ones to take the responsibility to make things "fair" means they just can't play anymore. Not saying they can't sometimes, just not always fun to have this responsibility.  It's a responsibility nonetheless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree that .gc have additional burdens when playing. You even say as much in a number of places, including the .gc membership criteria. For this I commend your community, as active admins make for a more enjoyable game. This is inclusive of your language, tk, and cheat policies.

 

This is certainly an issue to which I have no say; whether or not ro how much admins must interject themselves in enforcing rules or evening gameplay, for which there is no rule to my knowledge.

 

I will reiterate, however, that even gameplay does make for a more enjoyable experience. Perhaps we all must be more conscious in balancing teams.

 

-Many of us are quick to even the teams.  But does that create a catch22, because once you do it a few times, you're the "goto team evener guy?"

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I concur with this. I did notice last night, however, that no one (admin or pubber) made much effort to even things up. Perhaps there is no legal obligation to do so, but I suspect that there is an ethical (fairness) obligation on all of us to do so.

 

Respectfully,

SS

[Fatty]

Slash: No, you didn't offend, but it's very necessary to cover the first things first....meaning that no public server will ever be perfect. GC strives toward it...constantly...but in the end it's a public server.....I have a vision and goal that addresses this (I won't distract us by sharing it here), but even that will never escape this issue completely. Your comments are constructive and acknowledgements well thought out.

 

Bear:

 

admins shouldnt have to "move" others, when they should be setting the example: switching teams when need be

 

Statements like this bother me, because you toss it out there without some of the necessary acknowledgements that the Slashman made.

 

My response to your above statement, if that's where you come out, would be something like this:

 

Admins: you pay for the server, you spend your time clearing out the junk, but Bear wants more from you. He wants you to interrupt YOUR game to serve him....so Admins, you now have my permission to switch Bear first next time you see uneven teams. He is now the all-time autobalancer.....

 

I will always argue that it's better to use the skunk rule than to try to move people around, whether voluntarily or manually.

 

-----

 

And the stuff about admins stacking....get off it unless you're going to be specific. Do you have a specific group or a few people you want to name? If not, I would argue that my admins are using auto-select more than you. I'd also argue that they intentionally take the hard side of the map more than you. Point being, if you want to point the finger at the admins, you'd better have more than "zillions" for your data.

[whudats]

Well said Fatty.

 

I know most of us hit auto-select most of the time. I do it every time. Just the other night I was accused of switching teams to bo on the side that was winning when I went to spectate then came back by hitting auto select.

 

Anyone who has played with me knows I don't care that much about winning - just havin' a good time. Too many suicide rushes, but, I still have fun.

 

I haven't seen the admin stack when I play.

 

My two cents...

[Shropshire Slasher]

Let me redirect the discussion:

 

I take responsibility for making this an admin issue, which i intended but not soley. Since we've adequately covered this from an admin standpoint, let's shift gears.

 

I do believe that there is an onus on each of us to keep things even. Let's discuss to what extent we have this responsibility and to what extent we can correct it.

 

Points to discuss:

When is a disparity in score a problem?

When there is a disparity in score, what are the possible causes?

When there is a disparity in score, what actions should players take or avoid?

 

 

To be clear here... perhaps this is much ado about nothing. But while perfect team balancing isn't a reasonble destination, it is certainly a worthy journey.

 

SS

[Fatty]

A - When it's obvious there's no chance of a comeback, and nobody really feels like taking the challenge of a switch on their own accord.

 

B - Almost too many to name...easy side, friends playing together, skill happening to hit on one team (sometimes only takes a couple of l337 studs...or even 1 guy depending on server)...leadership on one team (and lack thereof on the other)....

 

C - We've covered this....depending on the momentum of the game...at 7-0 with the momentum still completely predicting continued pwnage, map should be changed if nobody is evening them out. Admins have to make this call. Players should avoid whining at admins. I've taken my beatings several maps in a row, I've pwnd without feeling guilty several maps in a row...and my most favorite: I like to organize a losing team and turn it all around (and I'll even boot the people who don't have a desire to turn it around and refuse to play as a team).

 

All in all, a map change is going to be your easiest solution. Those on the dominating team that complain about a map change when their opponents don't have a prayer are only concerned about their rising score and can leave and never come back for all I care.

[stutters]

for every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction. simply - wait it out and it will balance. it does, though, hurt on the stats (and *cough* pride). i most definetly wouldn't go as far as accusing admins or regulars of stacking...although a few definetly have their comfort zone as ct's.

 

there's another (offensive) server i regularly play on that has a map rotation every 30 minutes, 20 rounds, or first team to 12 (generated by 'timeleft'). it's the best means of keeping the game fresh that i've seen. if i find out what plugin that is, i'll pass it along, unless you're in love with mani.

[Clueless]

When I am on and see one side pulling away, i look at the list of players, and I know who the regulars are and who good players are, sometimes you get a good mix of good players and one side just plays better, in those cases, I do nothing but let the game take it's course.

 

On the other hand, when I see a bunch of talented guys on one side and a bunch of fresh faces on the other, then I watch numbers, usually the team with the good regs on it will have the top 5 or 6 guys having a double digit kill number while the other team is lucky to have one good guy, THOSE are the times I would like to see admin involvement, not when a team just works hard and wins.

 

I remember a few nights ago I went in to play dust and it was a CT wall of Mmmm, and the T's were getting beat up, so, being one who likes punishment, I stayed and played with the T's. We still lost overall, but we were able to pull out a few rounds, largely due to planning by Simkiller, and those wins felt good. I guess alot of it depends on your frame of mind when you're playing, if your already irritated, chances are, you've lost before you even start. We were having fun, and losing still felt good when we made them work for it.

Edited April 8, 2005 by Clueless .gc

[campkillyorself]

Be fun to have a game set up like this:

[Mmmm] vs *|CsLs|*

[Fatty]

mp_winlimit is now set to 10.

 

I think this is what you're referring to above, sjohn.

 

First team to 10 wins and next map is loaded!

[bear^]

rofl

 

"permisson to switch bear"

 

i never even see fatty in game (occationally on console) but he never gets to see me trying to even stacked teams

 

as far as auto-team select goes, i never use it

 

i try and join the harder side of maps, or to the team that has the lesser amount of skill

 

but whatever, tell yer admins to switch me as much as possible fatty

 

doesnt bother me one bit, cuz i kno i will be on the side that needs me more often than not

 

 

and WHY is it such a terrible thing for an admin to switch teams, fatty?

u pay, so inorder to have fun u must completely destroy the other team every round?

 

and im not just pointing out admins doing this, its regs and new guys too

Edited April 9, 2005 by bear^

[Laz.e.rus]

Be fun to have a game set up like this:

[Mmmm] vs *|CsLs|*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

uh oh.

he went there.

[Norguard]

Heh. That would be a fun match to see.

 

I'm going to be the first to admit that I am an almost permanent CT fixture. It's not because it's "easier", or because I like the weapons more, or because all of the good players flock to that side, but because (yes, this sounds kinda sad...) I feel guilty being an antagonist. ...and no, I'm not Catholic, and nor do I have a Jewish mother. It just feels good to be a goodguy.

 

Even on office, when it's 10 Ts (high-profile regs/clan members/GC) vs 8 or 9 newbish CTs... ...or Compound. I never once had the server tell me that there were too many CTs on Compound.

 

Sometimes, I'd be the last one alive, because the team full of regs would be a machine, while the random pubbers got hosed in a garage rush, or a Shanghai. Other times, I'd be the first one dead, because I tried to orchestrate a stem to the rush, or initiate a rush of our own - success notwithstanding.

 

Playing against those teams is rough sometimes. I sat on the other side of one, the majority of the night (two or three full rotations), a few weeks ago. 15 successful double door rushes in Aztec, in a row. After it was apparent that we had no money and no hope, most of my team left, but were replaced not by regs (I'm not going to delve into GC responsibilities - just community responsibilities) but by random pubbers, who joined just before autobalance kicked in. That momentum carried all the way through to Dust2, right before Aztec came 'round again. At the end of the night, I had gone from 70-something in the stats to 230-something. That didn't really upset me. What upset me was that I felt like I was banging my head on the wall, that entire journey. It was beyond my skill, and my reach to step up the collective CT effort to make it a little more than whack-a-mole in football helmets.

 

Stuttering John mentioned that there are those who flock to the SWAT uniform, but to that I say that there are an equal (if not greater) number of regs who make a mad dash for the inexpensive (yet highly-powerful) AKs and Galils, and enjoy playing the offense game.

 

What do we do, as a community who enjoys playing at their peak performance? Pay attention to what's going on - if you're team's been 10+ wins ahead of the other team for the last four or more maps, and it seems that almost the entire roster for the other team has been replaced by new people, because they were frustrated, it may be time to consider rebalancing. You aren't at your peak, if you're fighting other great players in order to wipe up the noob-spree on the other side. Likewise, you're not at your peak if your whole team is dead within the first 45 seconds, and the entirety of the other team is sweeping through en-masse to find you in the shadows.

 

At least, I know I'm not at my peak at either of those times.

[General J]

Maybe someone should suggest to valve a way to lock out the "Join CT" and "Join T" commands when you first enter the server. I have a feeling that would solve about 99% of your team stacking problems, such as people joining the team their buddy is on.

 

That would obviously have to be unlockable for match play, but for pub it would be great.

[Sid]

Lol I have the opposite problem. I love being a Terrorist. It's harder on most maps to be a T in my oppinion. Except for maps like compound or assult (Which I miss terribly). As a member of the community I definitely see people gravitating to my team when I join a server but I usually discourage it. As far as Mmmm stacking teams, i say bring it on. There are enough good regs that like to give it to "the man". So the good sameratins(spelling?) are out there. Just need to flag one down. I'm always happy to help.

 

 

-Bane

[Laz.e.rus]

Maybe someone should suggest to valve a way to lock out the "Join CT" and "Join T" commands when you first enter the server.  I have a feeling that would solve about 99% of your team stacking problems, such as people joining the team their buddy is on. 

 

That would obviously have to be unlockable for match play, but for pub it would be great.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If it wasnt for this, I would never have even played counterstrike in the first place, as I was 'brought" in by a friend and shown the ropes/followed him around etc. Not be able to join with your buddy? Craziest thing I ever heard!

[Shropshire Slasher]

Hey all. I was out of town over the weekend, no internet .

 

Played for a half hour last night. Cobble from 10:30 to about 11:00 pm.

 

didn't see too many regulars on, except Antimatter and a couple more. No .gc that were apparent.

 

Played as ct and we got beaten double digits to four or so (anyone happen to remember ?)

 

This was the perfect counterpoint to my own thread... We lost big, but for reason. There were many players who were apparently inexperienced, and we were getting out stategeried. But... the t's had quite a bit of new players too, from what I could tell.

 

This was one case where we didn't need any intervention.

[Shropshire Slasher]

FWIW,

 

Sometimes I find with unfamiliar faces, it is difficult to marshall ones troops.

 

e.g. after we started 0-3, I offered to some of the new faces not to rush out into the courtyard area with all the boxes at the start of each round. They were getting owned by ANTI (excellent round, BTW).

 

You can guess what happened the next round. And the next... and the next...

[Shropshire Slasher]

And finally, to further the actual thread topic:

 

I would suggest that there is a time and place for balancing teams.

 

For instance, in cobble last night, the bomb was planted a few times early, but as the rounds progressed it usually ended through atricion. A few of the t's were laying down some righteous AK ownage.

 

So... here is a hypothetical to discriminate when between legit and illegit score imbalance:

 

1. one team is accomplishing team objectives through better strategy and organization: this is fine, nothing needed.

2. one team is constantly wining though kills, and 2 or 3 members are in the 20-2 range in kills. Here, I would encourage us all to police ourselves and offer to switch teams and even things up.

 

As stated earlier, i think Cobble was a number 1. I died ALOT. But I had my share of kills, and the 2-3 times i took out ANTI was very rewarding.

 

But we've all played maps where the play was a number 2. And we all know number 2 stinks.

 

*off topic* Y'all ever notice once in a while a round where you spawn, the team runs off, and you start your circuit or your defending of a choke point , and you look up and the radar is EMPTY? you hit tab and your team got cleaned out before you even finished attaching your silencer! We had a round like that last night... funny stuff.

Edited April 11, 2005 by Shropshire Slasher

[*BiGBonES**]

One of my favourite peices of administration on the server was a while back on dust. CTS were in double digits, Toka.gc came over to Ts and said 'If you do not rush you will be banned'.

 

The result:

The whole team rushed, the whole game evened out, the rounds were much shorter and everyone had fun. Maybe we should encourage admins to do this!

 

I personally have no problem with gc/mmmm/csls members all stacking one team. There all friends and want to play together, why shouldn't they?

 

I'd be happy to go onto the loosing team for 4 maps solid, it will improve your CS skills much more. And if you end up getting battered, dont check the stats page for a couple of days till your back to normal,(if the stats mean so much to you)

 

My last agruement:

I blame magruter alone for team stacking, he can go from a strong CT side to weak T side, and turn the whole game around literally by himself.

 

To solve this problem we need another skilled CS player on the other team, possibly people like simkiller,cujo or bigbones

Edited April 11, 2005 by *BiGBonES**