Map change rule (?)

[it3llig3nc3]

First I wanted to put up this copy from the server console without comment, but then I realized that some people might misunderstand it so I put it up with the following question:

 

Is there a policy, rule on GC that admins can decide to change the next map based on their own will/desire/decision/preference?

I believed that the admin's are more hosts on these servers and making sure the gameplay is fair and enjoyable. Changing maps without asking the players on the server is quite rude in my _personal_ opinion. I'm not sure it's a good argument that admins pay for the server so they do whatever they want... But whatever.

 

so playing on the server, completing aztec the nextmap supposed to be assault and I kinda like that map especially the CS:Source version which is more balanced for CTs than the original. And then italy came up... So I asked why... below is the discussion, the relevan lines marked with -->

Enjoy

 

 

. Counter-Strike: Source

. Map: cs_italy

. Players: 11 / 25

. Build 2596

. Server Number 73

. SetConVar: No such cvar ( mani_nextmap set to de_aztec), skipping

. SetConVar: No such cvar ( mani_tickrate set to 100), skipping

. SetConVar: No such cvar ( mani_reserve_slots set to 1), skipping

. Begin loading faces (loads materials)

. End loading faces (loads materials)

. Initializing renderer...

. CMaterial::LoadVMTFile: can't open "materials/maps/de_nuke/glass/glasswindowbreak070b_1112_-824_-344.vmt"

. CMaterial::PrecacheVars: error loading vmt file for maps/de_nuke/glass/glasswindowbreak070b_1112_-824_-344

. CMaterial::LoadVMTFile: can't open "materials/maps/de_nuke/glass/glasswindowbreak070b_1112_-824_-344.vmt"

. CMaterial::PrecacheVars: error loading vmt file for maps/de_nuke/glass/glasswindowbreak070b_1112_-824_-344

. Can't use cheat cvars in multiplayer, unless the server has sv_cheats set to 1.

. «darc|it3llig3nc3|« connected

. [LaW]Sgt. Slaughterâ„¢-TopBrass connected

. Scoring will not start until both teams have players

. Antinonsmoker connected

. *|CsLs|*Maverickâ„¢ connected

. ^OPP^ connected

. [Mmmm]BIGSHaW .gc connected

---> «darc|it3llig3nc3|« : interesting assault version... :D

. [Mmmm]BIGSHaW .gc killed *|CsLs|*Maverickâ„¢ with usp.

. [LaW]Sgt. Slaughterâ„¢-TopBrass killed [Mmmm]BIGSHaW .gc with glock.

---> Macabre : it was changed

. Undies connected

---> Macabre : by admin

---> «darc|it3llig3nc3|« : hmmm

. [LaW]Sgt. Slaughterâ„¢-TopBrass killed ^OPP^ with glock.

. Macabre killed Antinonsmoker with glock.

. [LaW]Sgt. Slaughterâ„¢-TopBrass killed Λ Ł Ι Ξ Ń with glock.

---> «darc|it3llig3nc3|« : it's selfish... assault is good... plus the admin should have asked for a vote

---> Macabre : um... admins own the server

---> Macabre : they pay for it

. FRIENDLY FIRE IS ALWAYS ON!

---> [Mmmm]BIGSHaW .gc : it was supposed to be italy instead of aztec

COMMENT: It's interesting as several times checking "nextmap" during the previous map the response was "assault". Moreover if you read along the current nextmap after italy is again "aztec" which makes this comment a bit questionable...

---> Macabre : they can do it if they want.

---> «darc|it3llig3nc3|« : blah... it's pub...

---> «darc|it3llig3nc3|« : they should at least be polite

---> Macabre : a pub were there are probably over 40 reserv slots

. Macabre killed ^OPP^ with ak47.

. Λ Ł Ι Ξ Ń killed [LaW]Sgt. Slaughterâ„¢-TopBrass with usp.

. park your weapon ' connected

---> «darc|it3llig3nc3|« : I was admin for a long time... never changed the map without voting when the server was full or half ful

. Λ Ł Ι Ξ Ń killed *|CsLs|*Maverickâ„¢ with ak47.

---> Macabre : is this your serveR?

---> Macabre : no, don't debate the rules

. [Mmmm]mrX .gc killed Λ Ł Ι Ξ Ń with scout.

. Antinonsmoker killed [Mmmm]mrX .gc with usp.

. Macabre killed Undies with ak47.

. GC EXPECTS TEAMWORK IN THEIR SERVERS.

. [Mmmm]BIGSHaW .gc killed Macabre with ak47.

. «darc|it3llig3nc3|« killed Antinonsmoker with deagle.

. [Mmmm]BIGSHaW .gc killed «darc|it3llig3nc3|« with ak47.

. Player: «darc|it3llig3nc3|« - Damage Given

. -------------------------

. Damage Given to "Antinonsmoker" - 207 in 3 hits

. Player: «darc|it3llig3nc3|« - Damage Taken

. -------------------------

. Damage Taken from "Antinonsmoker" - 89 in 7 hits

. Damage Taken from "[Mmmm]BIGSHaW .gc" - 116 in 2 hits

. *|CsLs|*Maverickâ„¢ connected

---> «darc|it3llig3nc3|« : I have never seen a rule that an admin can change the map at his/her desire

---> Macabre : shut up

COMMENT: according to hard rules he should have banned for this :-) guess what: he did not

. Wrote 'screenshots/cs_italy0022.jpg': 3.93 Mb (1280x1024) compresssed (quality 90) to 340.95 Kb

. Next map is de_aztec

. Antinonsmoker killed Macabre with tmp.

[...]

 

So I shut up before getting banned for "debating rules" and played along.

After 10 minutes the server got deserted... I'm not trying to imply that it is because of the mapchange but if that particular admin loved italy so much to change to it at least should have had played it for a while...

 

Isn't it a bit sad?

Edited January 8, 2006 by it3llig3nc3

[mookie]

I've seen from time to time nextmap report the nextmap incorrectly, not sure if that's the case here.

 

The only admin policy I know of can be found here (scroll down some):

http://www.gamrs.co/htmlgc/joingcstandards.shtml

Technically what it says is that members should be asked before any server change. Realistically I think most of us don't find it a big deal for an admin to change nextmap. Specifically, assault is known to be an unpopular map here, so it wouldn't surprise me to see it changed. It's also possible that the admin who changed the map was leaving, and asked for any last requests; I've seen that happen often as well, especially late at night.

[Laz.e.rus]

"-use whatever action necessary to maintain a fun server environment"

 

Personally Id refer to this as the Golden Rule.

 

Laz's Golden Rule #2:

"Our goal is to fill up any server we have with quality competition, teamplay, and companionship"

 

And because Admins are people too:

"You are asked to use your judgement"

 

I believe that all of the GC admins have GCs best interest in mind with every action taken. To say that no-one has ever made a mistake would be silly. Im not saying this action was a mistake either. We do our best and hope the MAJORITY enjoy their time with us.

Im sure that a map change was in no way meant to slight you personally or minimize your fun. Im sorry that you feel either of those amy have happened.

 

On the bright side: All maps eventually end!!!

Edited January 8, 2006 by Laz.e.rus

[stutters]

like mookie was saying, sometimes the nextmap reports incorrectly. the servers have scheduled rotation, and if one rotation overlaps the other (they do), the nextmap shows the wrong map.

 

anytime i break out of the mapcycle, i use our admin mod to ask all .gc members if they have any preference. like you mentioned, it is a pub, and its hard to please everyone. the least we can do is try to please our members. if you'd like that same treatment, membership is an open enrollement. signup here.

[VooDooPC]

Last night #1 went from Italy to Dust, who's idea was that?

[it3llig3nc3]

Thanks for the responses.

Maybe I'm over-reacting this whole thing and it was only a technical issue.

Also I'm considering to be a paying member as one of you recommended, just decided to give some time. The server rules are rather strict and here people can really get kicked for one single word which is not allowed and then come up to the forum asking for forgiveness. I'm not quite sure this attitude meets my style and wanna pay to be part of it... but that's OFF topic.

 

About the mapchange.

The reason for my overrreaction is that it always tinklees me off when the argument comes up around "I pay for the server, whoever plays there for free should only enjoy it and follow what the paying members want."

I tend to look at the regular (--> non paying) players really as guests. And let's be honest: CS can not be enjoyed alone. not even in small crowd. It's really enjoyable with at least 6-8 players. So the guests are really helping for the paying members to get something for their money.... otherwise the server would be much less full... So I think it's a host's _responsibility_ to be nice with the guests and ask what they want... You don't move out a chair under your guest at home just because it's more comfortable for your girlfriend, right?

In the mods there is map vote function so it's not so difficult to use it... Why not?

 

Whatever. I think I got the point and have no doubt that nobody is against the players. But for some admins it looks like:

"one for all, and more for me"

[strangefamous]

Part of the problem with the map vote though is that it doesn't ever have all the maps in it. The map vote only seems to have the standard maps in it, I bet this can be fixed but this is why we typically ask the other admins and then just make the change.

[stutters]

actually, if it were between a guest and my girlfriend, girlfriend would get the more comfortable chair 100% of the time.

 

we tried the random map vote at the end of each map on server #3. long story short, it wasn't received well. i'm not entirely sure why, but the people spoke, said and here we are.

[wayfarer]

Let me just say how I feel about this stuation;

 

First of all;

---> Macabre :  shut up

COMMENT: according to hard rules he should have banned for this :-) guess what: he did not

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Something should have been done here, not nessisarily a ban or

even a kick, but a warning at least for sure. However, seeing as thats

the end of your cut & paste from console, we can't see if anything was

done about that. Even if nothing was done, admins sometimes miss things.

We're only human.

 

Next, I might get reprimanded for this, but I feel the need to

speak my mind;

I'm not sure it's a good argument that admins pay for the server so they do whatever they want... But whatever.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually....it's a lot like that. Our servers our rules. GC members & admins

put a lot of time & effort into running good clean servers, not to mention

they're money. I'm sorry but I don't "buy into" this argument. I

would be willing to bet your "opinion" would change if you were

a paid member. You are welcome to become a paid member & enjoy

the benifits that membership carries anytime you like.

 

In your defence;

Is there a policy, rule on GC that admins can decide to change the next map based on their own will/desire/decision/preference?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your right the section marked in green below applies here.

 

I have 2 points in the admins defence;

1. As pointed out in red admins only need to ask GC members.

Polite would have been to ask everyone. I agree. But it's not nessesary.

2. (I believe this was already posted) The section highlighted

in yellow. Assault can sometimes be a drain on the server player wise.

General Admin Rules

  -Consider yourself the host of the server, using your position to make the visit of all non-members as enjoyable as possible   -Use admin to keep the game moving, foster fair play and even teams, and to congratulate players on their accomplishments (such as kills, great teamplay or sacrifice, good strats, etc)

  -The use of csay should be avoided. If using, try to use at roundstart.

  -Sounds should not be played while a serious game is going on. Just because you are dead doesn’t mean someone else isn’t trying to listen carefully. Also, just because you’re not in a serious, competitive mood, doesn’t mean the others are not.

  -The admin with the longest connection time will act as senior admin unless control is yielded.

  -All GC should be asked before making any server changes. This goes for votes too. If one guild member is having a stellar game, they probably don’t want to see a mapvote come up.   -Admins playing under alias should identify themselves to other admins in the server; admins under alias should avoid issuing admin commands unless necessary. This includes identifying yourself when using remote monitoring (such as HLSW) when requested by another admin as well.

 

GamersCoalition Administrators will...

  -be familiar with, understand, and adhere to the entire admin policy (below) at all times.

  -set the example for all GC members and public clients of the GC servers by maintaining the accepted GC standardshead.

  -monitor the forums and volunteer to moderate whenever possible

  -use whatever action necessary to maintain a fun server environment

  -be accountable for any and all uses of admin powers at all times

  -Be responsible and carry out duties to which they commit. Don't say you can do something and then not do it. As an admin/board member, you are relied on by the community and the guild to support them. With greater power, comes greater responsibility. Act accordingly.

 

Long story short, I might have made the same call.

Trust me I know....even paid members don't always get the map they want!

*cough,cough Prodigy cough,cough*

Anyway, my 2 cents. Welcome to the forums.

Edited January 8, 2006 by wayfarer

[it3llig3nc3]

Thanks again for the feedbacks and opinions. I think it was very useful for me in order to understand the GC culture and mindset around these things. I really appreciate the effort you made to respond.

 

However. (does not sound good, eh?)

 

Wayfarer said some things I would like to continue to comment on.

 

1. He said "I'm sorry but I don't "buy into" this argument [editor: it is about admins paying for the server so they can do more things without asking]. I would be willing to bet your "opinion" would change if you were a paid member."

 

Even if nobody believes me (however I can produce the proofs) I was in a situation for paying for a server and being admin on it. And not $50/year but $50/month! And yet, I acted the way I described. Simply because I did not get obsessed by the power I had. Yes some people choose to pay for these servers but it's mostly because they can control the environment and also have guaranteed "seats" when they want to play. The grey area is where the hospitality starts to be nice and FAIR with players who are not paying but (and it's important) generating the crowd for the paying ones so they can enjoy the game. In my mind hospitality includes being polite and at least asking about certain things. We passed feudalism a long time ago. I feel irritating when people start acting like "the choosen". If this is why some people pay for being an ADMIN it's very very unfortunate. Having power over others is all about respect and moving beyond selfishness.

 

2. Wayfarer also said that I can choose to pay and then take the benefits. All I have to say to this is that if I choose to pay I will do it because I find GC a valuable thing and I want to give my contribution to make it stronger. I'm not going to buy membersip to enjoy these debatable benefits such as being asked about a map-change...

 

anyways, it is still a lot of fun to play on the server even if some things does not go the way I believe it's optimal... Maybe I'm the minority with my too liberal thinking and the World won't change. The rich and strong will rule as they wish.

[mookie]

Unofficially, I'd say the #2 rule for admins (after enforcing the rules) is to keep a full server. Like you said, playing in an empty game is no fun. The more players in the game, the better the gaming value for paying members, and the greater the odds that some more will become paying members to get a reserved slot. It seems like time has proved out at GC that assault is an unpopular map, and in this particular case that is probably the beginning and end of what happened.

[stutters]

this is one big circle dance for an instance that was most likely a map cycle overlap.

[mookie]

Discussions like this are good. It helps everyone to better understand what everyone else thinks is going on. Like that time when I never even knew F10 jokes were against the rules. I for one never knew that anyone liked cs_assualt.

[stutters]

yeah, it is good to have these convos, but i'm losing hope that anything could be said to "win over" IT (for short, eh). gc has tiers to the authority, and us "minions" know that our leash can get yanked at anytime. if there are admins among us with power trips, it's hard to hide, and gc has a good track record of weeding people out.

 

<steps to the sidelines>

[Brillow_Head]

I'd say that every admin acts a bit differently to diff situations. Some may ask opinions on nextmaps, some people ask the admins for a certain map etc. We're iron fisted about our rules...but map cycles are very much debatable as long as it doesn't detract from the game.

 

Personally, to simplify things I just run standard map rotations. Cant get mad at an admin for sticken to what would automatically be next in the rotation eh? Also, I would have told Macabre to back down and not be so rude.

 

I agree with John in thinking you got caught in an automatic rotation change from one map set to another and got cut off before assault.

 

Sounds like you've got a good head on your shoulders it3llig3nc3.

[wayfarer]

As I pointed out with the GC admin guidelines, I don't see that

the admin did anything wrong. He made a decision. One that he felt

was in everyones best interest. I'm sure he did'nt think anyone

would have wanted assault & thats why he changed it. (If he changed it

at all. I was on # 1 earlier today & next map said Nuke...we went to

Dust & I was the only admin & I did'nt change it! ) Even if

there was a vote do you think you would have played assault? I

don't feel the admin was on any power trip here.

 

Admins do not pay $50.00/yr for membership. That is for standard

membership. Are there benefits?

1. personal email

2. opportunity to play on GC TWL team (new)

3. reserve slot (try getting into #2 saturday nights without one!)

4. a chance to have YOUR say in whats going on within the community

5. knowing you are helping to maintain clean quality servers

that are monitored consistently.

6. a home for your clan if you like

 

After playing on GC servers for a little while, & seeing what other servers

are like, I did'nt mind paying to ensure clean, fair gameplay where admins

DON'T abuse they're powers. Ever play on a map where admins on the

opposing team are in your spawn 2-3 seconds after you buy your weapons?

Not fun. Not fair. Not here.

[Fatty]

What tickles me is that he's arguing with a pubber, and not a member. That's just kinda funny.

 

Second,

 

Yes some people choose to pay for these servers but it's mostly because they can control the environment and also have guaranteed "seats" when they want to play.

 

This is both true and false at the same time. Most of our members joined yes, because they want a seat in the server...but that's an effect of something greater: the fact that they just enjoy being around the people in our community.

 

Moreover, being a reserved member for the aforementioned basement bargain of $50 doesn't get you much "control" over anything. It should be noted that admins, who actually, as you so gracefully elude to, are in a position of service....but have to pay another $50 AFTER having gone through a rigorous interview process that sometimes lasts for over two weeks before their application is approved.

 

In the end, I've been whipping admins for years now. Disturbingly enough, many start to enjoy it. But seriously, no offense to you personally (and we do appreciate your comments and your time) but I always enjoy listening to those that talk of their past admin experience, accompanied by the do's and don'ts that we should incorporate into our practice....and I always wonder where their servers are and why they're gone.

 

The rules quoted above have been proven over years of practice. Our admins do a great job and should be thanks much more often than I have time for. Their "job well done" is glorified by our continual growth as a community.

[wayfarer]

Have a look here. I would be inclined to think most

people are satisfied with the way people are treated here.

[Fatty]

Ever play on a map where admins on the

opposing team are in your spawn 2-3 seconds after you buy your weapons?

Not fun. Not fair. Not here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's only fun when I play "Hide the Mini."

[stutters]

It's only fun when I play "Hide the Mini."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

we're still talking about counter-strike, right?

[it3llig3nc3]

What tickles me is that he's arguing with a pubber, and not a member.  That's just kinda funny.

 

Well that was a bit rude and just reinforces my feeling that if you're not paying you're second grade "cheap" nobody with whom GC should not even argue? Pathetic.

 

Secondly: just to show that I planned to be a member, I even exchanged PM with Fatty to see if the community is alive and functioning:

Fatty 

Re:Joining, Jan 2 2006, 09:53 PM

Delete Post Quote Post

 

 

Warrant Officer 1

Group Icon

 

Group: COALITION BOARD MEMBER

Posts: 21,083

Member No.: 3

Joined: 18-August 02

 

 

 

 

QUOTE

Hi,

 

b4 sending money through PayPal I just wanted to run a "check-in" to see if there is life behind the forums and the servers in these days.

I'm playing on the servers since Nov/Dec 2005 and I like the environment, game style.

I'm also willing to contribute more to get admin however I understand that it's a longer process and there might not even be a need for that now.

 

Well, anyway, just please confirm that everything is operational so I can launch the money smile3.gif

 

cheers

 

Istvan

 

 

I just arrived home from an 8 day vacation...but yes, as you probably can see...there is life and breath in GC!

 

Thirdly,

 

This debate is not about that one mapchange to assault I hope it's clear. It's about the policy how admins should behave. I think I'm 100% clear now how GC operates on this matter and I understand that my choices are accepting them or leave as they won't change.

 

4. Another quite rude and high and mighty comment to answer:

In the end, I've been whipping admins for years now. Disturbingly enough, many start to enjoy it. But seriously, no offense to you personally (and we do appreciate your comments and your time) but I always enjoy listening to those that talk of their past admin experience, accompanied by the do's and don'ts that we should incorporate into our practice....and I always wonder where their servers are and why they're gone.

 

Well take the 63.251.20.39:27015 for example. I left the clan mostly due to the fact that I had not enough personal time to dedicate to their very strong efforts to fight and win in the different ladders. The server is EXISTING, well managed.

I think you all should be proud of the GC servers and the tight rules you maintain on them, but please don't think that you're alone.

 

Up to this point I thought it's a fair debate/conversation but it seems that it went down to a cheap insulting exerecise which is sad.

Lastly: if you want my $50 so you feel better debating with a member not a "PUBber", just let me know... if this is what makes you happy I'll pay...

[farmerisme]

It's only fun when I play "Hide the Mini."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

we're still talking about counter-strike, right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Priceless.

[J. Dunlavy]

it3llig3nc3: I agree that it is frustrating when Admins change map rotation without at least asking. It's not the end of the world when they do, but most the time it is suprising and, some of the time, disappointing.

 

Well that was a bit rude and just reinforces my feeling that if you're not paying you're second grade "cheap" nobody with whom GC should not even argue? Pathetic.

Learn to take a joke. I feel you have a tendency to overreact. Your opinion has been well stated and I'm sure it's gained attention here.

 

Keep in mind, though, that Admins PAY to keep the servers running, so their opinion naturally carries more weight on the servers. I doubt you'll find any fairer administration in any other community, including the one you've linked to.

 

To community: Maybe we should clarify our map/rotation rules? Nothing new, just a quick note in the rules or something.

 

Love,

 

J. Dunlavy

 

P.S. Assault is lame.

Edited January 9, 2006 by J. Dunlavy

[Fatty]

Before you get any more unstable, try to actually understand what I typed. I made no jokes in my post.

 

you're second grade "cheap" nobody with whom GC should not even argue?

 

That's my point, you're weren't reading. Who in GC was arguing with you? Nobody. He (you) was arguing with a pubber (Macabre) who has decided to back up the admin. Struck me as funny, still is.

 

We don't need high-maintenence fragile gamers who take offense to a word that doesn't carry insult (that wasn't even meant for them).

 

You're either a member, a regular, or a pubber. Where's the "cheap insulting exerecise" that you're referring to? Even if I DID refer to you, you shouldn't equate the use of the word "pubber" with the idea of you riding in steerage either.

[it3llig3nc3]

Before you get any more unstable, try to actually understand what I typed.  I made no jokes in my post.

 

you're second grade "cheap" nobody with whom GC should not even argue?

 

That's my point, you're weren't reading. Who in GC was arguing with you? Nobody. He (you) was arguing with a pubber (Macabre) who has decided to back up the admin. Struck me as funny, still is.

 

We don't need high-maintenence fragile gamers who take offense to a word that doesn't carry insult (that wasn't even meant for them).

 

You're either a member, a regular, or a pubber. Where's the "cheap insulting exerecise" that you're referring to? Even if I DID refer to you, you shouldn't equate the use of the word "pubber" with the idea of you riding in steerage either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Indeed your statement about who is agruing with who can be read the way you claim and I confess I did not read it that way and took as an insult. I apologize for this. Please note that between my post and your post there were 6 other from four different people (mookie, stuffering.john, brillow head, wayfarer) and the way I read it that you comment one of them arguing with me.

Besides I just realized that in the original conversation (the log 1 posted) I was arguing with another pubber and not a member. It is not obvious as many times members are using nicks wirhout tags and even admins don't reveal themselves as admins publicly for pubbers (they even post messages into the in-game chat in green only with (ADMIN) as a mark only)

 

Am I high maintenance? Perhaps on this matter yes. Maybe because it is important for me and it was a bit difficult to realize how different our viewpoints are. I think I clearly stated that I understand the rules and know my possible choices.

Also you probably realize that this discussion won't end with consensus. And that's OK too. But to close it in a way that you go personal (-->"we don't need high maintenance guys here") is a bit harrash and let's be honest: not too fair in a debate.

 

If you don't want me around I can understand that just let me know. Also if you wish to close this debate once and forever.