A Request to the Admins

[Deadlock]

First i would like to begin that i started this topic because i feel that the admins on the l4d2 servers do not always fulfill their jobs as admins. Like today for instance...

 

We were playing in the Parish Campaign and it started as what seemed to be like it would of ended as a close game. But as the campaign continued, more and more players left or joined and it caused one of the teams to become "stacked" as most people call it. Our team slowly fell behind and the other team was very far ahead by the third round as you can see here in this link:

 

 

http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/565519171817111991/4C5B7AA819059C5418FF6602F251C0DE0DB4DB18/

 

 

As a heads up at this point the enemy team had already gone and we were just about to start, but before we left the safe room, many people on our team were asking the admin (through text and voice) in the server to scramble the teams in order to make them a bit more even. The said admin then typed in chat that he would not scramble the teams and then said nothing for the rest of the round. At the end of the round our team had died about halfway through the map while their team was able to make it all the way with their hole team. Which gave them a much larger lead going into the next map. At the end of the round i made a comment mentioning the fact that teams were not scrambled because of the admin, and the admin then left without saying anything and did not return.

Links to the whole conversation and the end of the round are shown here:

 

http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/565519171817100015/1E5B6A65F2D3296214A1A8ABC29E0CA0303E820A/

http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/565519171817104599/1651E4F0B278BB080D2D8D9210F16B91EC8B94DC/

http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/565519171817107769/2522CA4DC4EEEA52C5820EADED21FD3C6A687287/

http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/565519171817109591/2A4F06D6A9B7535CCBD3FEB9DA348A1C3104637F/

http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/565519171817115638/4117166E89D3C6C1A09A896FCEF094626D1477DE/

 

I would like to apologize as well that i may have sounded like a bit of a smart*** towards the admin in these screenshots. But i was just a little bit frustrated that there was an admin in the server that could have made just a simple change in the game to make it a bit more challenging and more fun! That and along with the many pleas from our team to make a scramble happen. Even before this entire round started another admin was in the game as well but had to leave do to some problem in another server. But before this admin left he even mentioned that if there were any problems that the other admin could scramble or swap some players around. Which also was confusing since nothing happened.

 

Don't get me wrong i do respect admins on this server and i agree with several of the rules. But i feel that the admins shouldn't be as passive and that they need to understand the playerbase in these servers. That there are good players, average players and even the occasional new player that join these servers. And that the server cannot control where these players that join go. It just automatically sets them to whatever team has space or if a team is behind on players it will place them there. So sometimes depending on the timing on when people join, one team might start getting more higher skilled players than the other team which can cause that team to become stacked. That's where admins come into play. One of their duties is to make sure that the game is fair and fun for everyone. So when a team becomes stacked, they have the ability to scramble the teams in order to make them more even in terms of skill and experience.

 

The screenshots above are an example of a passive admin. Mercman is clearly ignoring the requests of multiple people that want either a switch or a scramble... The point difference was over 1k and because of this i left the game. Another member that was in the server can also share that the game continued this way until the finale in which the difference in points even more and that the game was lost entirely.... I'm aware that the scramble system is not the best doesn't always work the way its intended... But if there are obvious signs that the teams are uneven, then swapping one regular for a non regular really couldn't have hurt....

 

Ty for reading and have a nice day! 

Edited August 10, 2014 by Deadlock

[dessa]

I was there for this game. Mae was in the game as well as zero but zero had to leave due to family issues and mae had to go to the other server because someone was having a problem with friendly fire working.

People on both teams asked for a scramble to happen, not only did it not happen but Merc left the game. I put up a vote for a scramble but so many people raged that all it did was stack our team more. Far to often are there players, not just admin and members but ALL players who refuse to move over to the other team because theirs is winning. I'd rather be on the losing team and actually having to try than to just have a game handed to me.

Most of the regular L4D2 admin know who the regular every day players are and can easily tell when a team is stacked one way or another, if you're an admin who tries to keep teams even then thank you for that; if you're not an admin who does that, why? Stop letting the stack happen and do something about it. Otherwise what's the point of being an admin?

[oakgyrl510]

Be less passive to members vs new players also. They should know the rules far better.

[Garychios]

I have one thing to say.  Scrambles do not always work, so certain admins dont do them. 

[Deadlock]

Yes, i agree the scramble system is broken and i feel it needs to be redone. But just because the scramble doesn't fix the problem every time, doesn't mean that its not worth a try to fix the teams. A more efficient way would be to redo the scramble system based on PPM using a 1-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-1 scramble. From highest PPM to lowest. That would fix many problems that people have when it comes to scrambling.

[PeanutButterNJelly]

Admins should either do a scramble vote or swap a player or two, if a game is really lopsided.  They should only do it at the start of a round.  There is usually no point to doing it at the last round.

 

The difficulty is that some people ask for scrambles all the time.  Also, teams change quickly, with people coming and leaving.  We just had a couple people ask for a scramble in the VIP match, when both teams were ALL members, and the losing team had Swat and Chimi on it.  It was a ridiculous request, and by the start of the final round, the score was almost dead even.  Just because a team is losing, does not mean we should be scrambling.  One team is going to lose.  The last screenshot above shows a game of 2000 vs 1000 in points, and the round before the scores were 1300 vs 700.  These are not scores that would normally scream for a scramble.  

 

However, reminder to admins, please make sure if a team is really stacked to offer some help in evening them up.

[scubiedoobie]

It's a complicated issue. I don't think scramble is entirely defunct, because it has its uses. If nothing else, it's better than the status quo when a team is clearly stacked. Even a randomised scramble like we have is better than nothing.

[MurderinClony]

Here is my input, and as many have said before, scramble doesn't really help.

Even when scrambling by PPM it doesn't help, regardless of how you put them on teams back and forth

 

Spamming fireworks on the ground during hordes is a great way to get your PPM up very fast , especially if you shoot it and then hold a sniper, pistol, or deagle, but what skill does it take to buy a crate, drop it down, shoot it, and wait? None at all and that person gets swapped to the losing team during a scramble when he doesn't help at all and just makes the team worse.

 

Some people are really good have great aim and help the team a lot but have a rather low or just average PPM and they can get swapped over to the winning team even if they are great to start with and just make the winning team better.

 

For the general consensus, and when normals are playing, the PPM scramble works decently, but not the best even with this situation. I'm just glad they try something at the start of the campaign anyways.

Personally, I feel that the swapping one or two would be better, always.

 

And to be honest here, and I will not put down a name, though I'm sure the admin will know who he is, but I've had an admin come in and try and scramble the teams at the start of the round, only to make it more lopsided on the winning team already, and then scramble it again five seconds later, which then reversed it to the other team, maybe not as lopsided but still way in favor of the other now losing but soon to be winning team. After that, the admin said privately to me, you know what to do and leaves, to which everyone follows the admins quick decision and starts to rage and the game is ruined not because of an admin, because I know he was trying to help, but because of the scramble that went wrong.

I think a few should always be swapped, never scrambled mid-game.

 

Another time we have had someone who really wanted a scramble on the finale of Swamp Fever which had gotten quite lopsided with the new people joining, and had become un-winnable for the losing team, and used !votescramble to do it. All but two players on the winning team were swapped to the losing and all but two players on the losing team were swapped to the winning team. Now that is just pointless.

Edited August 11, 2014 by MurderinClony

[Garychios]

I was not on the game mentioned before, but the last couple of dozen games I have played have all been close, so they have been fun.  I have not needed to do a scamble in a while. 

[BroiledDumplings]

I was there for this game. Mae was in the game as well as zero but zero had to leave due to family issues and mae had to go to the other server because someone was having a problem with friendly fire working.

 

People on both teams asked for a scramble to happen, not only did it not happen but Merc left the game. I put up a vote for a scramble but so many people raged that all it did was stack our team more. Far to often are there players, not just admin and members but ALL players who refuse to move over to the other team because theirs is winning. I'd rather be on the losing team and actually having to try than to just have a game handed to me.

 

Most of the regular L4D2 admin know who the regular every day players are and can easily tell when a team is stacked one way or another, if you're an admin who tries to keep teams even then thank you for that; if you're not an admin who does that, why? Stop letting the stack happen and do something about it. Otherwise what's the point of being an admin?

 

I was there for this game as well, as per the screenshots lol.

I left after the round Deadlock described solely because I felt that there was no longer any point to playing (i.e., 2k points vs 1k points is game over IMHO), despite being on the "winning team".

 

From my short time here, I've noticed that some players are simply "carries" (AKA so good at the game that they significantly influence the outcome and tip the scales in their favor). So although a scramble could work in theory, as it is random, I do not foresee it doing much if the "carry" player is still on the same team.

 

The only solution I can think of is to do an "auto random scramble" after each and every round. This should statistically yield a finale that is fairly close in points over an infinite number of games. This is not ideal, but if the suggestion is to do a scramble, then I say scramble after each and every round. The only exception would be during server event nights where it's members only, etc.

 

I honestly don't care if I win or lose in this game, but what makes it crazy fun is when the scores are INSANELY close (e.g., I believe I was in a No-Mercy game that had a difference of like 15 points at the finale, that was a rush).

 

Just my two cents.

 

EDIT: After reading murderinclony's post, you could make it a pseudo-random scramble as well, to prevent instances where only 1-2 people are swapped. That is, after each and every round, 5 players from each side will randomly be swapped. Or you could do a dice roll from 3-7, and whatever number is rolled will be the number of players that will be randomly swapped over. Just throwing ideas around. =)

Edited August 11, 2014 by BroiledDumplings

[LadyYuri]

when i used to play i would offer to switch to the less stacked team (not saying im awesome but i do know a thing or 2). maybe the few of you that request a scramble should do that instead of asking for a scramble ask the admin as a suggestion to switch u over to the other team so u can try to even it up. especially with new players arriving in the server its best to show them how to be in the server rather than just complain about scramble since it more or less makes the teams worse. there have been times when admins don't want to do it because they are on the winning team. that has happened several times so requesting a scramble or requesting that they should switch you over to the losing team won't happen all of the time but might work out better in the long run.

[MasterTalpa]

whatever happens happens. like yuri, i too would swap back in the days to help the losing team. now i just sit on my team and watch us destroy or get destroyed

Edited August 11, 2014 by MasterTalpa

[dessa]

A lot of the time a scramble or swapping is asked for by parties on both teams. I personally would rather play on the losing team than the winning team. At least then it's a bit of a challenge so whenever it's asked if anyone wants to swap over I always volunteer.

Also it may be a pain to always have to swap players around or do scrambles but each admin accepted being an admin and knew what that would entail. If you don't like doing it then step down, problem solved.

[PeanutButterNJelly]

I don't like stacked games either.  But again, some people, especially newer players/members, ask for scrambles every game.  Just because one team gets to the safe room and one team dies 1/2 of the way through the map, there is no mandate that an admin should change up the teams.  It is not the admin's duty to try to make a campaign end up in a tie.  Teams change very quickly, as a lot of people do not play entire campaigns. I swap teams all the time to help balance things.  Many times when I move over, my spot on the winning team ends up being filled by someone like General or Swat as they join the server. 

 

Admins should, however, watch for overly stacked teams, and offer to help fix it.  But this is going to have to be the judgment of the admin. If one team can barely make it out of the starting area, while the other team is getting to the saferoom, obviously help is needed.   If one team has considerably more "members" on the team, they will probably need help.  Either call for a vote to scramble, or ask for some volunteers to swap (usually swap a member for a newer non-member, or an admin can swap himself).

[dessa]

 

 

Admins should, however, watch for overly stacked teams, and offer to help fix it.  But this is going to have to be the judgment of the admin. If one team can barely make it out of the starting area, while the other team is getting to the saferoom, obviously help is needed.   If one team has considerably more "members" on the team, they will probably need help.  Either call for a vote to scramble, or ask for some volunteers to swap (usually swap a member for a newer non-member, or an admin can swap himself).

 

This second bit I agree with fully. Can we do some sort of PSA that pops up when people load in saying, "Stacking kills, not even once"? XD luls

[LadyYuri]

peanut vs general

[MurderinClony]

Also it may be a pain to always have to swap players around or do scrambles but each admin accepted being an admin and knew what that would entail. If you don't like doing it then step down, problem solved. 

 

Are you really telling admins to step down and stop being admins simply because they don't like doing something? That's like telling me to quit my job because I don't like it, regardless of how much money it makes me. For admins, its the joy of keeping a server they like fun and clean, not about making money. And that wouldn't solve the problem it would actually make it worse, having less admins means having less on at any time in a given day.

Edited August 12, 2014 by MurderinClony

[dessa]

Wait are you actually comparing something people do in their spare time to a R/L job? lol Being an admin means having to unstack teams sometimes, no matter how much of a pain it is. So seeing that not happen, it's frustrating. Everyone knows how tough the admins have it on here, I in no way envy them. Does it suck when you just wanna play the game and can't cause of admin duties? I'm sure it does, again I don't envy them. But each of them knew what they were getting into when they accepted it. Yep they keep a server fun and clean, those are your words exactly. Letting a team stay stacked so that by the time the finale is done there's 1-2 thousand point difference, isn't fun. EVERYONE's been on a losing side of a game but being on a side that is stomped the entire game isn't fun for anyone, unless you enjoy having a win handed to you. If an admin doesn't want to keep games fair and equal and as you said fun for all then why not step down? At least then they'd just be able to play and enjoy the game. And as I stated in previous posts thanks to those of you who do keep things even and fun.

[Deadlock]

 

Also it may be a pain to always have to swap players around or do scrambles but each admin accepted being an admin and knew what that would entail. If you don't like doing it then step down, problem solved. 

 

Are you really telling admins to step down and stop being admins simply because they don't like doing something? That's like telling me to quit my job because I don't like it, regardless of how much money it makes me. For admins, its the joy of keeping a server they like fun and clean, not about making money. And that wouldn't solve the problem it would actually make it worse, having less admins means having less on at any time in a given day.

 

The problem with this statement is that if someone were to take a job, whether it be for free or for money, normally you are to fulfill any duties that are required for that job. Whether or not you enjoy doing them. So if you were told to do something by someone and you do not do it because you simply do not like it, then you will be fired. And the job will go to someone who is more willing to do what is necessary. So say any admin refused to do something that is required of them because they don't feel like it, then why are they an admin?

Edited August 12, 2014 by Deadlock

[scubiedoobie]

I think in the end the consensus from this thread is that while the administrator in-game holds the most power, and ultimately the decision rests with him/her, helping them reach that decision is equally as important. If both teams are extremely vocal and insistent about having manual swaps or a randomized scramble (which might not work as well as manual swapping as other people in this thread have listed), then it should be done. If, however, only a few people or a certain amount of people are asking for it, and not a full majority, then it should wait.

 

At least that's what I'm getting.

 

Or just make sure you don't have Deadlock on your team. Easy win guaranteed.

[MurderinClony]

Dessa, my real life job is done in my spare time, I give all my spare time to my job and I take shifts whenever I can, so yes I will compare spare time to my real life job.

P.S. Please take the time to type out real life if you are already going to write such a long post.

 

Deadlock you have a fair point, and normally a person would if he doesn't do what he has been told to, and in your case it would be and is true, but after he refused a scramble, for various reasons of his own or those stated here, did you ask for him to swap some people around?

If their job is to keep it fun and fair, and I'm not saying in this case he did, because it seems like it was unfair since nothing was done, do they have a specific way of doing it? If your boss tells you to do something and you don't do it his way, but still get it done, possibly more efficiently than intended, would he still fire you? (I am of course suggesting swapping a few as opposed to a scramble because it works out better I believe)

I don't know if you asked him to swap some around or not but he only said no to a scramble as far I can see. I don't believe he refused to change the teams overall though, but if you asked him to swap some around as well and he refused then yes, he would be fired in this case.

 

Edit: Although I do believe he should have suggested swapping a few people rather than having to be asked, especially after being asked to scramble and then denying it.

Edited August 12, 2014 by MurderinClony

[chick82]

I will say this. I use to swap people bc the scramble didn't usually work so good and switching a player or two really did help, and sometimes made it worse the other way. There's just no way to tell. But I also got grief for trying to balance as well. People would be upset that there was this balancing that they didn't see was needed unless they were losing, so that put a damper on me wanting to balance teams. Now I just play it by ear.

 

I will say this:

Never will I scramble on map 1 or the finale (that's just silly)..

 

Never will I swap people (now) without asking for volunteers(most members are willing to switch)

 

I don't like to scramble on camps with 3 maps, it's just kinda of silly IMO.

 

If enough people ask I'm going to put up a vote and that vote makes the decision, unless it's just that obvious or everyone on both sides has already been like "scramble"

 

Just don't spam it, don't demand it after one round on map 1, don't assume we don't care bc we don't put up a vote, if it's almost all members vs a team with only 1 or 2 members yeah I'm going to swap people, I will always switch unless 2 really good players that are better than I ask you know who you are.

 

Just understand there is always a winner and always a loser but yes being beat by 1000 or more points sucks play nice and don't be angry if the majority wants a scramble.

[Lookback]

Unstacking teams is not that hard.  Usually, it is dealing with the complaints about unstacking teams that is the problem.

[Garychios]

I make $2000 a week as an admin here.  Its awesome.  I think I get a raise next month. 

[san`]

I make $2000 a week as an admin here. Its awesome. I think I get a raise next month.

Fired.