auggybendoggy November 4, 2003 Share auggybendoggy Member November 4, 2003 Cool I agree lets not get all fussy, I totally understand crows concern for my views or doubts. But I have to say to others along with him it's discussion and whatever you feel say it, just don't offend. If you are offended cause someone has a certain view then just cool down and come at it if you were on the other side. Do good to others! Now as for crowbar my point is that for me I believe because of Love not science. I don't think I can prove God exists using any scientific method. So for me to point to a un-believer and say look at the molecule or the atom is a bit hard when in fact using the same logic and reason I have to deal with men that look like monkeys or a age old earth. I can't buy into science to prove God. I believe because I believe love is tangible. Theres alog to that point so I won't go into it. When God did miracle it was of another generation. I personally have not seen any miracles. Yes I've met people who say they have but often I think theres an explanation for them. Sometimes there is not but I don't know (cause I wasn't there) if what they were saying was accurate or lie. I give them the benefit of the doubt but it benefits them as to the manifistation not me (since i did not see it). I don't limit God as to what he can do, I'm dealing with science. The point is that if Watch believes evolution based on science and struggles to believe in crhistianity based on word of mouth then how do you help him or me or anyone. Is it blind faith? You mention the miracles of the O.T. How do you know they happened? Were you there? Do you have video? I think your more like me than you know. You don't have science to prove those things happened. Rather you take the text of these writings (hebrew and greek) and you study them. And I think you like me would respond the same way that if you found the bible to be like islam or other self centered religions you would not believe the stories. You believe because of LIFE AND LOVE. Not because of science, not because you were there, not because you saw some bright light on the road to chigago. I believe this is at the heart of everyone, we believe cause in our heart we feel there is an afterlife and we feel that there is way too much to love (like our family) to just go to oblivion. And no one knows this love and life that I know than Jesus. I do believe the writings we got were wittnessed but mostly because I appreciate its teachings..... 1) Love the Lord God 2) love others as much as yourself 3) love on another principals 2 and 3 are so amazing that I want to know this God so no. 1 is important. If these principals were not here I would reject it. Compassion, mercy and grace. So my faith is not blind to me. Perhaps to others it is but not to me. I was brought to believe by his kindness and mercy not by his proving to me via science. Does that mean I never doubt? NOT AT ALL. Of course you know that if I meet anyone who says they don't, I think is lying. We all do, I believe. If John the Baptist did and Peter did then so do I. May I never grow arrogant to think I don't. If anyone has not heard Keith Greens music GO GET IT. One of the most amazing things about his ministry was his honesty of who he was. In one sone he says "and like peter I CANT EVEN WATCH AND PRAY FOR ONE HOUR AND I'LL BET I COULD DENY YOU TOO!" yet he was as on fire as paul and peter and these types of guys. Truly an inspiration for us all really open up and say to God..."Forgive me Lord!" boom headshot! Auggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane November 4, 2003 Share jane Member November 4, 2003 BTW i dont disbelive in Plate Tectonics. I thinkits a relatively well documented theory. And im with Crow again on this moving mountains thing. Its faith that moves the mountains, not people. God gives us faith, so when/ if the time and need comes, then the faith will be provided in due measure. No need, no faith, no moving mountians. And I'm sorry for flaming. I should know better. I just get heated when I know i shouldnt even be argueing the points Im making. My fault for the heat here all. I'm appoligizing for my heat, not my views. But I am sorry for the heat. Later... jane | gfe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auggybendoggy November 4, 2003 Share auggybendoggy Member November 4, 2003 Jane, totally agree. If I don't get heated here I do in person so I've (over the last few years) been trying to control my emotions. Concerning moving mountains. There are starving children, fathers and mothers in Africa. Do you suppose there is a need to provide food for them. Will you go and pull 200,000,000 loaved of bread from a basket? I suppose you just think there is no need to? OR PERHAPS YOU DOUBT! I do sypmathize with everything being God's will, no doubt about that. But Christians who treat it as "theres just no need" also take asprin to remove their headaches. In the case of starving or missing children, I see a great need not just to bring them the gospel but as Jesus says "I was hungry and you brought me something to eat..." I believe it can be done. But I don't know of anyone with such faith alive today. If you can do this please go to africa and make it rain, feed the starving, house the homeless then reach out to them and give them the gospel in these actions and word. Again I emphasize I believe Jesus' statement was more of a "oh ye of little faith" type of remark. We don't move mountains therfore our faith does not even add up to the size of a mustard seed. Sorry If I doubt other christians, don't mean to rain on anyones parade. But it's what I believe and until someone says I CAD DO IT, THEN THEY BETTER FOLLOW WHAT JAMES SAYS...SHOW ME YOUR FAITH NOT JUST BY WHAT YOU SAY BUT BY WHAT YOU DO!!! THERFORE YOU BETTER DO IT! SCOREBOARD BABY! Auggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane November 4, 2003 Share jane Member November 4, 2003 Well, Auggy. I believe I have been called to do such things as you suggest. I hope my calling(to perminant missions work, wherever God takes me) will include rain and bread and the like. I believe that God will show me when and where to go. Sorry if this all sounds a bit odd to those who aren't of the faith I have. But I will go where I am called. I will do things God asks me to do. Miracles are entirely possible and I believe that we will all see what we all(truly) want, the return of Jesus in Power and Glory. In the end we all need to serve something other than oursleves and that WILL happen, no matter if you choose to serve Christ now, or when he comes soon. Controversy over all this will continue to grow until the time is full and God decides its time to show the world His Glory. Then mountains will move and the oceans will empty and the whole earth will bow down to its creator. Miracles will seem common place then. There is no lack of faith Auggy, its the lack of understanding, confidence and readiness that causes miracles to not happen. Um, does this follow under anyquestion for christians? Or does this help Watchtower to ask more? Hopefully jane | gfe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOFX November 4, 2003 Share NOFX Member November 4, 2003 (edited) . I dont know about you, but I'm a geology major and if you had taken any classes besides geo100 in college or in high school, you'd know that plate tectonics is a theory only about 50 years old, and just a theory, not a law(wrong word, its not a fact its would be a law). My biggest beef with this whole arguement(besides the fact that I ALWAYS get too heated) is when people from both sides of the debate use scientific "facts" to support their points. There is no irrifutable evidence for plate tectonics since we cant even see them. We can observe how they move and use those observations to judge where they will move to next(based on the assumtion that they exist). We also assume many things from this theory(which as my professors and textbooks say is one of the weakest theorys in geology) such as molten mantle/ upper core, solid core. We use these assumptions(which can NEVER become law becasue we will never be able to see this in action) to further back other assumptions such as the eath is cooling(molten mantle slowly cooling to make crust) and that the earth is many billions of years old(showing various ablsolute-age dating methods' weaknesses as justifiable by the melting of the lowwer crust and the hardening of the upper mantle). Im not going to make this a scientific aregument because I dont have the time. But to refute what you said, look to laws, not theorys. Though many theorys are as close to law as possible. There are actually very few laws out there. Cause and Effect. Logical Fact/Scientific Law. When you look at the list of scientific theorys we all believe in, then look to the list of scientific laws, you will find a dramatic difference between the proofs of each kind. OK. IM done. Just saw that commment and had to drop in my little voice. I really dont appreciate people using false data for debates. One: it biases the debate, Two: it makes the user look foolish when proven wrong(which is never good because they get defensive and harsh), Three: it makes the prover look like a jerk(I look like a flamer of you post, but i really just want to leyt you know and the rest who read this post that you mistated a scientific theroy for a law). I have no harsh feeling towards you NOFX, i just wanted to set the record straight. Law:Everything goes wrong(2nd LAW of Thermodynamics), Law:What goes up must come down(LAW of Gravitation), Law:Energy is Constant(1st LAW of thermodynamics) Law: what is moving will keep moving unless something else acts upon it(1st LAW of Inertia), blah blah blah(just wondering if you're still paying attention) Im done now jane | gfe wow i missed this forum for a few days....i just wanna respond to janes response of mine... I dont know about you, but I'm a geology major and if you had taken any classes besides geo100 in college or in high school, you'd know that plate tectonics is a theory only about 50 years old, and just a theory, not a law(wrong word, its not a fact its would be a law).I never said geologly is a law, nor do I think it is..... My biggest beef with this whole arguement(besides the fact that I ALWAYS get too heated) is when people from both sides of the debate use scientific "facts" to support their points. I used the word facts because thousands of facts make up geology. It is a fact that if you split the atlantic up on each side of the plate boundry that runs down the middle, that there will be a mirror image in the age of the rocks...That fact supports the theory of oceanic crust being formed on a divergent plate boundry... I did not say this was a law. And I am not trying to prove anything, In fact im always trying to prove it wrong.....if you could help me prove it wrong, by all means please do Im not a idiot that says because sciences says so.....I have taken many science classes......I know how it all works.... To me and probably your professors, science shows more evidence and is more realistic.... I must have a scientific mind or something, but I cant believe in an idea that has virtually no evidence to support it when we have this other idea that has ALOT of evidence backing up it... Oh and im mainly interested in geology because it is a newer science, there is much to be discovered.... Edited November 4, 2003 by NOFX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane November 4, 2003 Share jane Member November 4, 2003 Yup. I sounded like a jerk. My bad. I shoulda given you more room for error than I did. My bad(see above posts). Do i want to help you prove plate tectonics wrong? No. I think its a valid and plausible theory. My only point of saying all that was(as said) was to correct your word usage, so as to clear up the possibly misstaken meaning of your point. Yes geology is ascience is based on facts. But its also based on unclear and partial evidence lots of times. As is all science. as to your comment about being scientifically minded and not believing in something will "virtually" no evidence, I guess that is where you take your evidence from... Hebrews 11:1(biblical book) states: Faith is the evidence of things unseen. Also as to physical evidence there is not much(truly) of a God or of creation. But there is evidence up the wazoo against the "evidence" of evolution and the surrounding theories. Not all is found by Creationist either. Much is found by athiest scientists. This evidence is often published in Scientific American(i think thats what its called) and Science(two of the formost science journals). If not published it may be held onto to be studied, but most often above both scenarios, it is held up in the limelght as a joke. It is published with other evidence that seems to crakc any case that might be made for creation. Either way, once again I'm not providing "evidnce" of such things and Im too hungry ruight now to bother going toget some. So, flame me if you want, I'll be back later... jane | gfe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auggybendoggy November 4, 2003 Share auggybendoggy Member November 4, 2003 Jane I can only applaud you for your commitment to going to work out in the mission fields. WOW that is sooo cool. I do hope you make a tremendous difference for anyone you come in contact with. And please dont glock em You keep saying moving mountains is possible. I don't contend that. I'm just making the point that Jesus' statement is not "you can move a mountain with faith the size of a mustard seed, depending on the circumstances"... He seems to be very direct. If anyone of us had such faith we would do such things. Again I'm not trying to rain on your parade about going out to the field by saying you won't perform these because you lack faith. I am saying Jesus is saying we all lack faith so don't try to move the mountain. Jesus didn't believe it was possible to feed 5,000 people with a few loaves of bread and a few fish...HE KNEW HE COULD! There is a difference. this also applies to literal interpretations... According to John 3:16 all a person has to do is believe in Jesus will not perish but have eternal life, many people who live a life of sin will be saved. But we know by continuing to read that "believe in" means more then just believe. Even the demons know that much but it doesn't help them. Jesus performed miracles not only believing he could do them but KNOWING he could do them. DO YOU KNOW? I don't think you really do. I believe we all would doubt if God told us to walk up to a dead person at a funeral and say "get up and walk". We would all be afraid...especially because we would think...what if the dead man does not get up and walk. I say admit it, we all lack faith somewhere, somehow and thats what I bellieve Jesus meant by that. Now dude, that is soooo cool about you going. Do you know Keith Greens music? Also keep me posted on how things go and devolope. I really, really hope all goes well for you. Sincerely, Auggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower November 5, 2003 Share Watchtower Member November 5, 2003 I join in the applause.. The world needs good people doing good things.. and Auggy, u crack me up ->> "THERFORE YOU BETTER DO IT! SCOREBOARD BABY!" lol My thing with the moving mountains thing is this. Say you were being attacked by a Grizzly bear in the woods. You're praying just as hard as you're fighting.. The thing is going to eat you. You're going to be dead. Why didn't God save you? That's hardly a mountain.. The strongest christians everyday pray and ask for things and it don't happen.. There are people that goto church everyday, pray every night, believe with their whole hearts. For sure. I'm not trying to debunk anything here, just addressing my thinking on the Moving Mountains deal.. no flames allowed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane November 5, 2003 Share jane Member November 5, 2003 OK so this gets into another question, one that im sure has been addressed before. How does God's will affect our lives? IM gonna let you all hash this out for a bit and then voice my opinion later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL November 5, 2003 Share dwEEziL Member November 5, 2003 It is often hard to understand why bad things happen to "good" people but it is not our concern to wonder why. Our faith is not rooted on God saving us from every little pitfall in this world. He promised eternal communion in His presence for those who believe and accept Christ. That is all. Now, He does want us to live prosperous, spirit-filled/led lives and he, as any good Father but since we are in our current fallen state, sometines things happen. The world is a fallen place, under the control of the Prince of Liars, and bad stuff happens. Often, it is these trials and tribulations that either make or break us. But God has promised that he will not put any task before us that is too much for us so we are secure in the knowledge that whatever does happen, while causing some hardship or pain now, is surmountable and will help us grow in our faith. And, if the grizzly does eat me, while not the most pleasant way to go, only speeds me on my way to Abraham's bousom and the presence of Christ all that quicker. I have an analytical mind. I have always desired reasons, proofs, theorems, explanations, for everything but I also gave my life to Christ at an early age and while I did not get serious about it until 18, I can look back on my life and see how God's hand has been upon me, guiding me and protecting me. This is why I feel that, while I am an analytical, logical person, I can take the bible at it's word. Believe what it says without having to figure out how it is possible. When the Bible says I am a new creation in Christ. I am not just dressed in new clothes. I just don't have a new outlook on life. I am a brand new person. I can separate myself from the previous me by the fact that that "Doug" was a slave to sin, unable to resist it even if I wanted to, which, in my depraved state, I didn't want to. The new "Doug" is a slave to righteousness, following after not the "Laws of Religion" but the Heart of God. I am no longer bound to sin so I have the strength, through Christ to resist ALL temptation. Do I always? No. Do I give up? Of course not. Paul says "we run the race as if to attain the prize" even though, in these imperfect bodies, that isn't possible. Tangent? Sorry about that. Anyway, even though I am an analytical, logical person I have no problem in believe what the Bible says God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit can do. This might seem strange to some people, this dichotomy of nature, a hypocrisy of being but it is explained in 1 Corinthians 1:18, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auggybendoggy November 5, 2003 Share auggybendoggy Member November 5, 2003 Watch had redirected from my point concerening the grizzly attack. I want to make clear that Watch's point is different from that of feeding starving children. Dweezil mentions hardships that shape us. I agree with dweez but this does not apply to my point of feeding starving children. Watch's point is a rendered from the same issue but needs to be addressed differently. To make myself more clear, while I agree with Dweezil I do not agree that this means starving children should not be fed. Watch's point is a self preservation issue. Starving children is placing other before yourself. Therfore though I agree with Dweezil I still agree that moving the mountain is harder than turning 1 loaf into 200,000,000. If indeed we see no need to move a mountain I wonder why we have food, water or other resource shortages in our world. Watch, to tell you how pathetic I am. About 3 weeks ago for sunday school (which is my favorite) I lost my keys to my car. I was soooo angry. So I though, I should pray and ask God to give them to me. Then I thought oh shoot, I left em in the door of my car overnight and somebody like our nosey neighbors took em. I looked, and looked and looked to no avail. When I finally was ready to pray I said "why should I ask God to bring me my keys, I know he won't." So why bother praying if it won't be done. I actually got angry and said thanks for nothing God, couldn't you do a simple thing in my life? When I said this my wife said "I found em" in a spot I checked and they were not there. It wasn't a miracle cause I probably did not look good enough...but it still remains God slapped me hard for my selfishness which turned to anger. If a grizzly attacks me I run. Kinda like in the matrix when sifer tells neo "take my advice, you see an agent you run your donkey off." (Im going tomorrow morning to see revolutions) But still it is a bit hard to see dying children and wonder how God permits life to run its course. I think its our lack of understanding sin and righteousness that makes us so confused. I do believe God will restore all things so it that hope which helps me to put up with this world and its sorrow. remember if there is no God then life is cruel Auggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower November 6, 2003 Share Watchtower Member November 6, 2003 "Watch, to tell you how pathetic I am. About 3 weeks ago for sunday school (which is my favorite) I lost my keys to my car. I was soooo angry. So I though, I should pray and ask God to give them to me. Then I thought oh shoot, I left em in the door of my car overnight and somebody like our nosey neighbors took em. I looked, and looked and looked to no avail. When I finally was ready to pray I said "why should I ask God to bring me my keys, I know he won't." So why bother praying if it won't be done. I actually got angry and said thanks for nothing God, couldn't you do a simple thing in my life? When I said this my wife said "I found em" in a spot I checked and they were not there. It wasn't a miracle cause I probably did not look good enough...but it still remains God slapped me hard for my selfishness which turned to anger." The keys would have come up anyhow.. Most of the time when we "lose" our keys, they are in a pretty obvious spot.. How many times have you actually Lost your keys opposed to "misplacing" them? Gremlins or demons don't come and take them away only for one to pray and an angel brings them back You should have not given up so easily.. I've lost my keys a few times and it's Not fun Especially when I had somewhere to be.. And why would God punish you for getting angry about losing your keys? Anger is an emotion and not a sin right? You're allowed to be upset at yourself aren't you? Is this why God created those little things with the string that attach you keys to your belt? just kidding.. or am i?! Jane: How does Gods will affect our lives? Well if taken literally and the way it was, Gods will Is your life.. You are walking down the path God set for you. God knows the outcome already. Right? And the devil is at all the turns switching the roadsigns.. P.s Auggy, grizzlies can run 35 to 40 mph.. The worst thing you could do would be to run, unless it was running into a secure building or high up a tree.. Even then I believe they can blimb The reason I rought this up is because people say that God can do anything for you. Yet everyday people of the strongest faith pray for things to happen and they don't(ie:accidents, unnatural deaths, horrible events). Some will say that that's the way it works and God dosen't work like that(granting prayers and performing miracles), then some people say God Does answer the prayers and tries to give proof of many miracles and the like.. I'm also going to give you a few scenarios. My aunt Mary was a good lady. She lived on a farm with her husband and raised 3 good kids. 2 of which had mild learning disabilities(like spoke their own language, they understood themselves but you couldn't understand them till later in life) and must have been tough but she loved them more than anything.. She loved everyone. Everyone loved her. She put everyone before herself almost to a fault. SHe did everything around the house. My uncle is somewhat of a "different" person.. He was a craine operator for 50 years at Timken and farmed. Fishing farming and steel. you'd just have to know him I guess. But what happens is my cousin got in a real bad car accident with his wife. They hit a schoolbus head on at about 50 in a chevy fullsize pickup. No kids were hurt bu my cousin ended up in a coma with some pretty major bodily damage. his wife barely made it and was in the hospital for a month or so. Meanwhile my aunt and unlce visit daily my cousin in the coma.. One day on the way to the hospital, my aunt got sick and they rushed the rest of the way to the hospital to find she had an aneurysm. She was then in a coma with a bleak prognosis. They decieded that day that 70% of her brain was not functioning and she would never be off the ventilator. They deceided to let her go. My cousin wakes up a month or so later to find out his mom had passed away. My uncle is still basically a wreck. It's going to be hard for him to ever find another person like her.. He can't even really try I dunno. It's sad. house is always a mess. farm is going down the tubes. My cousin and his wife are doing ok. This is where my problem with christianity comes in. Most people would have to say that since she wasn't a "believer" as in she didn't goto church or read the bible... But she probably belived in God but never "took Jesus Christ as her savior". that she is "burning in hell" right now. What sense does that make? One other scenario is this. A preacher I know driving down the street following his son home from somewhere I forget. A drunk driver swerves left of center and forces the son off the road into a telephone pole killing him. Dad was on the scene. THe family(wife was a preacher as well) had major problems afterwards and ended up getting divorced and the Dad gave up on religion. I don't know what ever happened to the mom. I don't know what exactly I'm trying to say with these other than it's awefully messed up and I can't imagine why someone would "will" this to happen. How could anyone benefit from acts like these.. I wanted to keep this on a more "scientific" direction, but felt like airing that out.. You can address it or not. We have a lot of things being discussed here.. I like it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auggybendoggy November 6, 2003 Share auggybendoggy Member November 6, 2003 (edited) Watch, that is sooo sad. I am sorry about your family and friends. As for both cases as I said if there is no God then life is cruel (they'll never see each other again after loving each other so). As for your aunt. You open up a real can of worms for me with the church. Most of my doubts arent so much that God exists as much as does the church really have his truth wired. Your right about many christians saying your aunt "who never accepted Jesus as her savior" is in hell. I infact don't believe this. It's a big problem I have with many christians. We (in the church) will ofter preach about the infalability of the bible. We speak about the supremecy of God's word. Yet we mess with it sooo much. We mend it to our cultural habitat or personal agendas. For example. We (most) teach that we are born into sin depraved (as david says I was wicked in the womb). Therfore we teach that no man is w/o sin. We then teach that all men need to be saved since we all are depraved. BUT when an infant, child or mentally handicapped person dies we create a doctrine called the age of accountability. Most of us will never say "well too bad that baby got aborted and is now in hell". So we do what we need to to make ourselves feel better about our views. I get very upset with this. Your aunt (if you speak of her accuratley) who put other before herself was following what Jesus and Paul taught. I beleive this is her way of showing she was a christian even if she said she wasnt sure she believed the bible. Ghandi is another example of this. Heres whats hard for people (in the church) to swallow. 1) Jesus says many will say "Lord we heald the sick, cast out demons, perfromed many miracles in your name and Jesus will say depart from me I never knew you". a. They did it in his name and it made no difference 2) in Matt 25 Jesus says to people..."I was hungry and you gave me something to eat". and are granted eternal life a. they respond..."when did we give you something to eat...when did we visit you in prison or the hospital" The point being that the people who are saved (granted eternal life) didn't even know they were helping Jesus. They were just helping people. If they indeed did it in his name they would surely say...ahhh yes I remember lord, I know what you are speaking of... But they can't recall...why probably because they were just doing it..not religiously but lovingly! It is the true heart of a christian to love others before oneself. Bro I don't care what anyone says Your aunt is in heaven and doing well. This you can be sure of. Let the religious who think because she didn't do the instant christian sinners prayer talk. Thats all it is. As for aborted babies. I believe they are in heaven not because of age of accountability. I believe simply because GOD IS LOVE! And if he doesn't love babies then were all in a hell of a lot of trouble!!! It doesn't take a scientist to figure out that God won't do that. It doesn't take a verse in the bible to figure out God will embrace them. We just don't interpret Gods word for his sake. We ofter interpret for ouselves. In the case of culture, notice how most of the church is against women pastors. Ever wonder why this is. I heard a debate and I threw out the macho bull crap a few years ago. If God spoke to a king through the mouth of an donkey then he can teach a stubborn nation through the mouth of anyone he chooses. I love Lucas' stories of star wars cause they deal with (what I believe) to be the main component of mans sin. Most people think it's pride...I think lucas is right...It's selfishness. We think were so damn right about everything. If your aunt was not selfish then she has died to herself and belongs to the Lord. Auggy Edited November 6, 2003 by auggybendoggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane November 6, 2003 Share jane Member November 6, 2003 Jane: How does Gods will affect our lives? Well if taken literally and the way it was, Gods will Is your life.. You are walking down the path God set for you. God knows the outcome already. Right? And the devil is at all the turns switching the roadsigns.. I'm also going to give you a few scenarios. My aunt Mary was a good lady. She lived on a farm with her husband and raised 3 good kids. 2 of which had mild learning disabilities(like spoke their own language, they understood themselves but you couldn't understand them till later in life) and must have been tough but she loved them more than anything.. She loved everyone. Everyone loved her. She put everyone before herself almost to a fault. SHe did everything around the house. My uncle is somewhat of a "different" person.. He was a craine operator for 50 years at Timken and farmed. Fishing farming and steel. you'd just have to know him I guess. But what happens is my cousin got in a real bad car accident with his wife. They hit a schoolbus head on at about 50 in a chevy fullsize pickup. No kids were hurt bu my cousin ended up in a coma with some pretty major bodily damage. his wife barely made it and was in the hospital for a month or so. Meanwhile my aunt and unlce visit daily my cousin in the coma.. One day on the way to the hospital, my aunt got sick and they rushed the rest of the way to the hospital to find she had an aneurysm. She was then in a coma with a bleak prognosis. They decieded that day that 70% of her brain was not functioning and she would never be off the ventilator. They deceided to let her go. My cousin wakes up a month or so later to find out his mom had passed away. My uncle is still basically a wreck. It's going to be hard for him to ever find another person like her.. He can't even really try I dunno. It's sad. house is always a mess. farm is going down the tubes. My cousin and his wife are doing ok. This is where my problem with christianity comes in. Most people would have to say that since she wasn't a "believer" as in she didn't goto church or read the bible... But she probably belived in God but never "took Jesus Christ as her savior". that she is "burning in hell" right now. What sense does that make? OK. Well to me God's will is a bit more complitcated than just a roadmap/street to walk down. It's not even a blueprint of what your life "should" look like. Gods will is both clearly defined and vaguely ambiguous(lol redundant). He has plans for my life no doubt. His will cannot be thwarted. But what really ends up being the questions of the day is not what His will is for my life(to know Him and serve Him and Love Him), but what His desires are for my life. Yes the devil does through up some nsaty roadsigns to get in my way(latest one was cigarettes) and they are distractions. But those arent life threatening. Those arent deterrent to God's will. All of my life is directed at one purpose: to know/honor/love God with all my heart mind body and soul. Though my everyday life can be affected by what I allow satan to tempt me with, my eternal salvation and place in heaven is never in question, because Christ has already set my place in Heaven and what God does cannot be undone. BTW Watchtower, were you once a christian or have you just researched this discussion a lot? On to the next bit of your post. Your Aunt's salvation? Huh. As auggy put this already, many Christians argue over this point often. I ahve to agree with auggy but in a less whole=hearted voice. I dont see those verses form the Bible leading us anywhere but the places auggy already mentioned. But I also question the strictly obvious nature of how the Bible states salvation is acheived. It is by faith and unmmerited favor(what Christian lingo calls "grace"). No act of our own can redeem our sins and make us able to stand in God's presence. Dont get me wrong, your aunt gave her life for her family(There is no greater love than this: that he lay down his life for his firends). She was a beautiful person, from the sounds of things. But where can we draw the line? She did good. She most likely didnt have faith in God. This is a tough question and I'm glad I dont make the decisions on who goes to heaven or not. OK so that siad I hope your aunt is in heaven. I will say no more becasue i may go against what i believe if i do. BTW, going to heaven is not what christians want. It is to serve God. The only thing(i think ive said this before on here) that sepparates us from the rest of the world is that we know and choose to serve what we all(the whole world) desire to serve. Everyone on this earth truly desires to serve something. IN the end they find service to themselves is unfulfilling. in the end service to others is also unfulfilling. The only true fulfillment to lifes one desire is to serve the God of the Bible and love His will and desire for ones life. This fulfillment is found in one place. Jesus Christ. Tired of getting preached to? Tell me to stop. Anywho, im gonna go out and pretend to break a commandment(ima get me some frags on CS!) jane | gfe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auggybendoggy November 6, 2003 Share auggybendoggy Member November 6, 2003 Jane, I'm glad we agree on something I beleive Watch's aunt did have faith in God perhaps not in a "religious intellect" way that we think we have to. As Paul states in Romans if a greek follows the law as well as a jew will God not consider him to be of law even if he has not been circumcised. God looks at the heart. Thats it! No way around that. I do struggle with the fact of so many "contradictions or as some call it paradox'" in the scriptures. Nothing can thwart Gods will yet it's Gods will that none should perish but have eternal life. A good explanation has never been given of this to me but from the armenian side. Calvanism fails here. Anyhow I also disagree about cigarettes. I don't believe they're a sin. Its just paper and a plant. It's whats in your heart. As Jesus said "it's not what goes into a mans mount the defiles him". I totally believed he meant doesnt matter what you eat, drink, breathe. What matters is do you love. So if you go to the mission field like Iraq or somewhere and they ask you if you would like to have a smoke...light up jonny! Auggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower November 7, 2003 Share Watchtower Member November 7, 2003 I don't know Auggy.. Our body is a temple right? Cutting our hair was/is? a sin.. knowingly ingesting cancerous materials and getting tatoos is going against this in a literalists sense. But GOd did put the plants and animals on the planet for our use right? Hmm. You know cannabis tops were in the receipe for annointing oil right? ANyhow, I would think that knowingly doing harm to ones body should be a sin according to the scriptures.. But how cares, we can sin as much as we want to.. We'll be forgiven. And yes my aunt was a wonderful person. Fun to be around. I miss her greatly. Have any of our devout followers had tragedies like this in their immediate families? Oh and Jane, whil yer at it, quit coveting thy neighbors wife j/k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auggybendoggy November 7, 2003 Share auggybendoggy Member November 7, 2003 (edited) Jane are you jane | gfe or something like that? Watch I agree to a point. Doint your body harm usually would not fall under the "I care about people" category. But it depends on what scale. If you mean taking a knife and hacking yourself yes I agree. However Cigs are a much different issue. Again I believe totally that if a man can smoke a cig with a clear conscience then it is not a sin...for whatever is not of faith is sin. Pauls point in romans is that if you can do it with a clean conscience then so be it. Smoking tobacco is nothing like murder. Its like drinking a coffee with caffine. Its something thats done for pleasure not for self gain, pride or some deceptive agenda. It's just smoke. This gets into the issue of Law which is my biggest beef hee hee I have so many bones to pick don't I. I feel it's so legalistic of us to think cigarettes are a sin. In some contries its nothing at all. It's our culture. Is drinking a beer a sin? In out culture (the church culture) its not acceptable. Why? Because of the associations with beer and cigarettes and the likes. Forget about the heart of a man...his smoking bought him a one way ticket to hell...meanwhile the hypocryte who did not drink or smoke but attended church every sunday and wed night, who also hated many but professed love, will inherit eternal life... HOGWASH! The smoker has obeyed for he/she loves. The non smoker thought he attained some good merit for not buying a marlboro. The passage in Corinth of "your body is the temple of God" is a reference to sleeping with prostitutes, its not about eating or drinking. It's about sexual immorality. Yet many people try to pass it off like "well paul is including cigs and the likes in that"...NO WAY hes talking about "don't be united with whores, for when you do you become one with them in spirit"...It's got nothing to do with smoking. This is so lawful of us. It's like we got a new set of commandments 1) thou shall NOT SMOKE 2) thou shall NOT DRINK 3) thou shall have NO WOMEN PASTORS 4) thou shall have NO TATOOS 5) thou shall listen to NO HARD ROCK 6) thou shall NOT HANG OUT WITH SCUM BAGS 7) thou shall ATTEND CHURCH EVERY SUNDAY (and be quiet during the service with NO QESTIONS) 8) thou shall LOVE ALL IN THE CHURCH (and hate all homosexuals) 9) thou shall GIVE TO THE CHURCH (or you must not love God) ** MOST IMPORTANTLY ** 10) YOU MUST BE A REPUBLICAN (if your an american then your half way there) man I hate to say such things but this is the way it is these days. What a load! We trade in mercy and compassion; things that are important for things that are demanding and legalistic. We think if we abide by this criteria then we're ok. BULL CRAP! Jesus made it clear. Love me and Love others! Will the law save anyone? Auggy Edited November 7, 2003 by auggybendoggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane November 7, 2003 Share jane Member November 7, 2003 Oh and Jane, whil yer at it, quit coveting thy neighbors wife Lol i only play with KNock. She is scared of my though( i think). Anyways, I think smoking is a sin. Its not becasue it is bad for yuo or becasue it isnt of faith. Its an additction. You cant server two masters. If you are addicted to cigs(that would be me btw) youre not serving God fully. I will never have a clear conscience about smoking because I am addicted to nicotine. Legalism. Bah! it sucks but it is founded on scripture. So waht has to be done is take every situation by the book(Bible) and tehn see where you go from there. If it says no, I take it as meaning no. Id rather stray too far down the leaglistic way than stray to a point of such liberalism that we forget that sinners will go to hell. That is where the church is really headed auggy. As a whole we are headed left, not right. As a small minority the chirch is getting more and more legalistic, to counteract the liberalism in such branches as the episcopalian(ordaining a proclaimed happy?). OK Homosexuallity. I am not against the person who is sinning in such a way. I love them as the next person. I am not homophobic and I am not at all ashamed to ahve happy firends. But what kills me is that it seems ok to be happy and still preach the Word of God. OK so what is this episcopalian doing? He is openly expressing that he is living a life of sin and saying "im this way, live with it". Where as Christ said "You're that way, live my way". We can't continue sinning(without repentance) and be truly christians. The bishop is saying that its ok to live the happy lifestyle and still be a christian. That is rewriting the Bible! The bible says, no sodomy. The bible says, live as christ lived(if that means you ahve to control your physical self, do it). The bible says, let die the sinnful(physical) self so that a new self(spiritual) will be born. Am I making myself clear here? Am i being obtuse? Damn, I hope so. To be obtuse to sin is to be christlike. We pity and love the sinner, we despise and hate the sin!!!!!!!!!!! Flame away.... BTW: 5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:5-10(verse 10 is really my point.... how can someone preach God's word if its not in them?) jane | gfe <-------- look auggy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auggybendoggy November 7, 2003 Share auggybendoggy Member November 7, 2003 jane|gfe------I see now alas, I know you. Jane I'm in agreement with you concerning liberalism. My issue is not totally universal with no exceptions. I mean most people that I know show a true hatred for "democrats" or "homosexuals". I agree the church is playing with fire. It's liberty is not to live in sin as some of the demoninations are heading. But even greater than denying a certain lifestyle is a sin is arrogance. It's those who think they are great becasue the follow the code. Listen to pat robertson who thinks someone should drop a nuke in certain branch of the govt. True love? B.S. HATRED! and He shall reap his inheritance. His going to church, abstaining from nicotine, not having tatoos, not cussing, WILL NOT MEASURE UP TO SAVE HIS SOLE, if he continues to preach such hatred. As charles Finny once said..."A mans heart is as black on sunday (behind the pulpit) as it is on every other day of the week". Remember who it was who was called sons of satan. It wasn't the sick (spiritually). It was those who were bound to the law and thought they were great for it. Picking wheat in a field on the sabbath is a sin????? We are free from the law now. If not then don't work on the sabbath (unless it is good). Is this God's point. For if I surrender my body to the flames and have not love then it is in vain...thats paul speaking. What good did his following orders do? Again it's a broken heart that cries out (and continues to cry out) for God to forgiven him that God uses and saves. People are so blinded by law that they can't see what a lie is. Theologeons debate this questions. If you were hiding Jews in germany in ww2 and Nazis approched your home asking for them, would you knowing what they would do with them, tell the truth or lie? I know so many people who say they would tell the truth. I totally believe they gave into the lie. The lie is not what they told them...It's standing at the door with machine guns asking to kill the people. This is why Rahab is acknowledged for her faith. Her faith produced a lie? NO! Her faith followed Gods way and the lie was sent the other way. It's kinda like "thou shall not kill" vs. "thou shall not murder". 2 differnt things. I think we as people do go way too far to either side. Either we follow the law (in our mind thinking were being justified) or we go too far with our liberties (we excuse sin as if its not there). Both are condemned. As for your nicotine addiction. God has sympathies for drug addicts. Does this addiction change your love? Do you love yourself more than others? Does it reach into your soul and threaten it? Would you really choose a cigarette over saving someones life (then you have a problem). Ok.OK. I know your conscinece is unclean about it. But please remember...ITS YOUR HEART MAN! GOD CARES ABOUT IF YOU LOVE HIM AND OTHERS! DON'T THINK EATING SUCH FOODS BRINGS YOU CLOSE OR TAKES YOU FURTHER! IT DOESNT. Still yet you sound like someone whos totally cool. Where do you live. I'm in so cal (ontario) about 40 minutes west of L.A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane November 7, 2003 Share jane Member November 7, 2003 Interesting points. I have no more to say on this topic unless something new is brought up. I find liberalism and legalism both to be disgusting. Why can't we all just get along? Anyways i just wanted to say auggy, that you make good points. A few times i worry about where you're going with the stuff you say. But you're keeping it inline with what the Bible intends and says. GG . Watchtower think of any new questions? This is my favorite thread for sure. Keep em coming bud! I live in Colorado, bout 1 hour north of Denver(greeley). I go to the University of Northern Colorado. jane | gfe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auggybendoggy November 7, 2003 Share auggybendoggy Member November 7, 2003 I've never been to Colorado so don't ask me how I ended up to be a huge Broncos fan. Actually it was John Elway that got me hooked on football. I loved to watch him play the game. He was in my opinion the best QB ever. Him not winning superbowls early was not his fault. His team was just way outmatched. Anyhow I hear Colorado rocks. My sister was just out there and said it's nothing like L.A. Now and then you'll hear people say its just like it. My sister said it's way cleaner. Is it true? Jane I agree about too far left or right. Keeping a balance is important. Seems like thats the way in everything. That when you go too far in one direction (calvinism for example) you end up messed up. If you go too far (armen) then you end up just as messed up. There are good values in many ways. Now back to our feature presentation... Auggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower November 8, 2003 Share Watchtower Member November 8, 2003 Sodomy: Sin? Oral sex? Actually Any sex outside of marriage. Masturbation. I love how we can just interpret the bible as we see fit. We could have ten different explainations on this.. You know 9 states have laws prohibiting oral(sodomy) sex both hetero and happy.. And Wow, there is a happy bishop now? What does that say again? To me it says(along with all the other recent accusations), that these people that commit their lives to "serving god" don't mean they are fulfilled and happy. It's telling me that that are mostly living an amoral, false life. I'm not saying this is the case with all priest/preachers etc.. But there does seem to be a trend as of late.. In alot of cases, people thinking absoulutley morally end up being the most immoral in my eyes.. For example, a father of a family of 2 boys and a girl. Very christian household. Kids growing up and showing signs of "branching out" like drama club and other things not deemed "wholesome" and I forget what else. Basically dad kills whole family because he feels he is leading them down the wrong path beacause he is sort of failing financially and alltogether I guess. In his mind he rationalized killing them and sending them to heaven before they lived a life of sin. Scary. Back in the 50s or 60s.. I forget their name.. So there's at least one question in there for ya jane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane November 8, 2003 Share jane Member November 8, 2003 (edited) Well sodomy is most definately wrong. The bible(in the case of Sodom and Gommorah, as the name suggests) clearly finds the sins of the Sodomites to be vile and horrific. Now as far as oral sex is conscerned, I dont know of an refernces in the bible that say its wrong. Outside of marriage? Any sexual intercourse(sodomy, oral, vaginal) is wrong. Wrong=sin. Do these sins carry any more weight in God's eyes than any other sin? No. Romans 3:23 says that all sin is equal. So is it wrong? Yes. Will it seppartate us form God love? No. Should we then take God's love and mercy for granted and perform these actions? NO. Am I judgmental of people who ahve done these things? No. Then I would be a hypocrite since I have sinned in all ways but sodomy and pre-marrital sex. Masturbation? Wow. Many Christians seem to think its ok. I'm not sure it is. In most cases it is an addiction, and as i said of cigs, any addiction besides to God is a sin. Auggy take it away..... ps verifacation is availible for you if you want watchtower... Edited November 8, 2003 by jane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auggybendoggy November 9, 2003 Share auggybendoggy Member November 9, 2003 I agree with Jane on the sexual immorality. It's just flat out condemned and theres no washing it. I've tried to argue for it before to see if there was some other way of looking at it but I just could not find anything supporting sexual immorality. As for watches scenario (true or fictional) I'll say with reservations that its safe to assume that there have been men who have felt their leading their own family down a life of religion and never killed em. My point being that simply because one man does this to his family (as SAD SAD SAD as it is) does not mean the whole of the truth is invalid or false. Theres probably a story like that (throughout time) from all different aspects of life so does that mean all things mean they lead to some major lunacy. I don't think so. There are men who have killed themselves over a woman rejecting them...Does this mean we should teach that you should never fall in love. I think each individual has a certain DNA makeup about him that makes respond the way he does. Fatalism??? I'll bet there are many good people who have set their standards high who's children went off into the world and still loved their kids. Thus it does not conclude that those who set high standards of morality lead to a life of lunacy:) Sorry watch we part ways there. As for addictions, I like janes addiction get it Janes | gfe addiction hahahahah ah ahahaha but metallica rules the hard rock world... sorry jane I am not sure that addictions are sin though. I don't think of these things as serving a master. I think they can be such as the case with hard drugs where they form your character. But if the character is not formed from the addiction then do you really serve it. It's not much of a master if it doesn't control you? right? I'm not saying addictions are not. I'm saying I'm not sure all of em are. If a master cannot control your character then is it a master. We are all addicted to something I believe...even God for some of us (though not me). Some are addicted to reading...some entertainment...some CS....some pepsi...some leaving posts like this one i'm writing But I don't see tic tacs a problem if they don't take you away from God. I just see it as a weakness in the natural physical body that will one day be done with. As for sin...I don't know. Anyone got some insight. Auggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower November 9, 2003 Share Watchtower Member November 9, 2003 Yes fanatical is fanatical. I never say all.. Fundamentalism/extremism.. That's what I'm adressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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