Question for Christians

[auggybendoggy]

I read the tech. page and found it unsatisfying. I still think man is way too smart globally to sit around for 130,000 years then get smart in the last 10,000.

 

I read the Language page and while I find this one more interesting, I too find this one unsatifying. I don't deny Apes or Dolphins can communicate in basic symbols or associations. All that I am saying is that complex logic (technologys backbone) being devoloped so late

in a series of millions of years seems unreasonable. It's like saying the odds of the Lotto are 18,000,000 to 1 is impossible but yet someone somehow hits it.

 

Seems more reasonable to say man has been here for 15,000 years as we know him. His prior status to that could have been for millions of years but that would propose an evolution speed fluctuation.

 

sorry if im not too clear on my thoughts. I'm a terrible writer and am as bad at writing as I am at scoutknivez

 

Auggy

[Watchtower]

Another interesting link.. http://www.sysindia.com/forums/Literature/...posts/5021.html

and another.. http://www.peanutfarmer.com/backissues/Feb...y2000/clark.asp

Bringing the notion that the early languages were comprised of a few words that could take a whole page to define. This would show a trend of growing complexity in language.

And honestly, i've never put much thought into formal written languages. So most of my knowledge is speculation and recent studies. I would like to delve into this more as obviously I don't know that much on the subject..

We don't know that a "language" wasn't being used millions of years ago.. I'm sure there was communication between whatever beings existed. AS far as technology goes, we had to real reason to advance to the point we are are and Any advances seemed illogical due to our lack of knowledge of the world around us. We existed in a state that satisfied our needs. We weren't "dumb", but were Severely uninformed. A few Major discoveries set us on the path to which we now on. Our environment has alot to do with it. you realize we weren't always at the top of the food chain right? Survival was more of a priority than writing and arithmetic up until a few thousand years. Then came the "thinkers" Sabre-tooth tigers and Wooly mammoths were probably real fun to deal with with spears and rocks.. lol

*grabs knock by the hair and retires into our lair. lmao.

[NOFX]

i believe that communication was the key to our success.....Without communications how are we supposed to pass our knowledge to our kids. About 1900, we started experimenting with new types of communication such as telegraph and telephone. Back then it was a revolution, Now you could call up the other side of the country and give them information, when before it had to delivered by a guy riding a pony. Look how far we have advanced since then...

[Playaa]

did I post this before?

 

it's a link talking about how ancient chinese supports the Bible. (ancient chinese being the first written language at 4,500 years ago)

it's rather interesting and kinda blew my mind on some points....

[auggybendoggy]

I've read that assyrians had the first written language dating like 12,000 years ago. When I say first I mean complex language.

We know there were hyroglyphycs from thousands of years prior to all complex languages.

 

Concerning communication. I agree this changed things alot for us. However I find it hard to believe we did w/o if for 120,000 years then suddently used it the last 10. Like all things (technology, dna, rocks, oceans,) languages should have 130,000 years of evolution itself but

it doesn't. It explodes. I see a lack of evolution in languages making wonder about how smart we were or how long we've been around.

Certainly everyone agree that even languages should have an evolution of their own also. These languages of Chineese, assyrian, hebrew were very complex and organized showing these people were not at all apes or monkey like. It also shows no graduation to get to these complex languages that I've read or heard of. Even in my college philosophy classes I remember this was the weak point concerning the theory of evolution (secular college).

 

I realize it does not mean evolution is not correct. But like Creationism it leaves me to doubt. I like the matrix phil. more that is this is all a dream hahahahah

 

Auggy

[Watchtower]

We also have to keep in mind the process of recording our thoughts and ideas.. When did we realize it was necessary to record any words? The languages we are speaking of is REcorded language.. How many were there before that we have no record of? That's where the problem lies.. And again, we had more important things on our minds that writing and preserving history. We had other methods of doing that......

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/GLOSSARY/CUNEI.HTM Most likely one of the oldest Recorded languages.. Along with egytian heiroglyphics. The seemingly sudden emergence of written language does not say to me "poof" out of nowhere, but the fact that they were speaking it long before and perfecting the language Before actually finding a way to write it down. The first writings I'm assuming were etched into pieces of stone. I'm sure that discouraged the earliest of writers. Then came papyrus, long after the earliest languages bantied about. We cannot gauge human history by a written language.

 

"The original Mesopotamian writings were crude pictures of the objects being named, but the difficulty of drawing on fresh clay eventually produced the wedges and hooks unique to cuneiform"

This quote from the link I posted definitely shows the evolution of written language. pictures of the objects they were describing. Not some complex, unfathomable method.

[auggybendoggy]

Watch I'm not guaging what is but rather what is not (and that I am not saying it is not but doubtful).

 

I agree these languages were complex but thats my point. Where is there graduation from sumer? I too have read about Sumer and it's history which is actually fantastic. But I do see that 130,000 years should have brought men to papyrus earlier than it arrived, if in fact mans

history is at least 130,000 years. If our history is 1,000,000 years then it furthers my point that mans sudden ingenious was sudden in history.

I tend to believe in evolution in many ways. And while this page does show evolution it does not date back 130,000 or 1,000,000 years.

so I see a lack of knowledge 130,000 years or further along with a lack of inbetween species.

 

But please take it to heart Watch, I KNOW NOTHING concerning these issues they are just thoughts off my head and heart that I've always

had whenever I heard people discuss this issue. If you want to talk Dispensationalism or Calvinism thats more my arena...hahaha like I know anything about those things too.

 

I'm going to do a search on the evolution of languages or communication. I'll let you know if I find anything interesting.

 

Auggy

[Watchtower]

I know what you're trying to say. It's not exactly true tho. Think of tools say a hand-axe. These have been found(probably made by a "humanoid") are being found from 800,000 years ago.. That's a far cry from the seemingly recent 100,000 year figure. At this point in our history that was some "standardization" among the making of the tools thus indicating some sort of communication being involved.. And again, the world was being ruled by the animals not us.. Lets hypothesize on that for a minute..

[auggybendoggy]

I think im missing the point on that last one watch. Please expand so I can follow.

 

Auggy

[Watchtower]

Think of tools that were being made 1 million years ago.. Some in different areas manufactured in the same fashion. Dosen't this show standardization which would be propelled by communication and or language? You keep bringing up this 100,000 year thing like we hadn't starting seeing real signs of progress until then. in fact that is sort of the case but invention came with necessity. Necessity the mother of invention? So we didn't invent writing and the finer arts until we found it necessary. Like after we somehow got a grip on our environment say after the ice age which killed alot of the large mammals that we were competing with for "king of the land". Up until that point, our needs led us tword survival. I'd say if we were king all along, then we would have had more time to refine our other skills. *starts singing Staying Alive I dunno. Explain to me how you think the planet was when beasts ruled..

[Watchtower]

I wonder if anyone else is still reading this?!

[aZaZeL]

Good question.

 

Anyone else read this site? I'd be curious to hear (read) the thoughts of others about it.

 

http://www.divisiontheory.com/

Edited October 18, 2003 by aZaZeL

[Watchtower]

Az, I'm thinking that could have started a new thread of it's own but anyhoo.. Lets talk about man in a time when we weren't the king..

[White Knight]

Hail to tha King Baby!

[Watchtower]

Can't do it? It wasn't the case?

[auggybendoggy]

What do I think our world was like before man ruled. Probably pretty wild. I can only assume it was not at populated.

not as organized as it is today.

 

Is that a good start

 

Auggy

[Watchtower]

hehe, yeah that works.. Since we've pretty much played that whole scenario/debate out, I've been thinking about this lately.. Disclaimer: This may be a little far fetched and un-thought, but maybe see something in it.

Ok, you know how babies being born everyday are born into many different conditions ie; autism, CP, Downs, etc, is this a form of evolution showing itself? Small glimpses as to what our genetics may have been and randomly popping up here and there? Especially in the downs syndrome I guess.. I'm not trying to be mean, but their features are definitely not as refined and I don't know if I should say it but I almost think orangutan with their facial structures.. I don't want to offend as i think of these people no less, but my inquiring mind asks these questions.. I don't know where I'm going with this other than if people with these conditions "bred" more and produced more like them, the world would be a different place.. Those genes just weren't as successful? That sounds kind of cold I guess. Does anyone see what I'm saying? Is that out of line?

[dwEEziL]

Yeah, but do you notice, all of the changes you mentioned are non-beneficial?

Edited October 26, 2003 by dwEEziL

[Watchtower]

Not necessarily.. Aren't people that have downs a good deal stronger than average? and in it's "watered" down" stage(retardation/anomaly) isn't as effective(recessive?) as it once might have been when it was more forward in the gene pool?

[Watchtower]

Crazy.. forget it

[NOFX]

i see what your saying dude....makes sense to me, but I dont know what to respond with

[auggybendoggy]

Watch, I understand and I have a brand new niece whos downS. Shes adorbable. Shes a bid on the mild side but you can defintley see it. Really only cause of her tounge. If she didnt do the tounge thing you might think shes totally normal. She has pretty hands and round eyes which are diff than most DS. She def has the toes of DS though. And shes as flexible as a rubber band.

 

I'm not offended I see your point and I don't think there is an answer. I assume to play devils advocate, one might say that idea assumes too much of evolution. As if mistakes are past evolutional problems and that we don't make mistakes now. Of course this is an argument of micro evolution that our mistakes (imperfections) get dealt with in time and are eventually eliminated. So that might argue more in you behalf.

 

Anyways, yea but also be careful how you might describe em, I know if my sis or b-inlaw read you said orangatang, they would scream NO! Because of sensitivity on thier end.

 

Auggy

[Crowbar]

if all it takes is lots of monkeys with typewriters and lots of time, why hasn't AOL written any Shakespere yet?

 

saw that on a forum sig at another site. It kind of points out what I feel is the most glaring flaw in evolution. things on earth do NOT get better. over time, everything that is made of matter decays. people get old and die, plants die, fruit gets rotten, building fall apart, natural forces eat away at rock and dirt, babies born with "mutations" die, offspring of two separate species are infertile, our atmosphere is going away, the sun is getting weaker every year, NOTHING in this universe gets better with time. If the world really has exsisted for millions of years, judging from what we can gauge now (in other words, using the scientific methods) the continents would have been erroded to the point of being almost totally submerged by now, the atmosphere would have dissappeared long ago, actually, after the span of millions of years, I think earth would look more like mars. judging from the way things are going now, that is.

 

If we are to look at creation vs evolution (two beliefs) in any kind of scientific matter, you must look at what we can see NOW. We do NOT see inter-specie evolution happening now. in fact, the only time animals from different species do mate, is when humans co-erce them into doing so, and the results are steril offspring, if any. Scientists tell us that our universe is winding down, that the sun is dying and the planets are perhaps moving, little by little. In recorded history we find that humans have grown from small numbers relating mostly peacefully with each other, to massive numbers, threatening overpopulation in areas, who have divided into countless factions warring with one another creating a history filled with bloodshed. This doesn't sound like progress. Just look at the books and movies we come up with. Innumerable stories of warfare ravaging the planet, only a handful of survivors. The moon crumbling into the earth, catostrophic natural dissasters, all recognizable life on the planet comming to an end. The people writing this stuff can see, based on the world now, that the progress of mankind is a downward spiral. Evolution demands an upward climb, and we have nothing in this universe that identifies with that.

[White Knight]

That is an interesting point Crowbar. That thought had not occurred to me.

[Watchtower]

Yeah Auggy, i know that is kind of harsh and I don't want it to seem like that.. Its just how the eyes are sometimes rounded and set in close.. I apologize. I do think they are very wonderful and capable people.. Everyone.. Monkies and typewriters.. Hmm. Take away the last hundred years.. We were still crapping in pots. We didn't take baths! We act like we are this super evolved(well sorta ) species that has nowhere else to go! Look at society and the human being.. We have no where to go? Computer technology is only 20 years old really.. The abacus is only 4000 some years old And That was one heck of a machine! Ppl are living longer than ever.. Everything isn't in a "downward spiral"(depressing thought). Only until we were top of the food chain did things start getting out of hand population wise. We are very prolific breeders lol. i'm tellin you thats the key.. We didn't rule the planet for the millions of years it has been in existance... We couldn't have. how old do you think the planet is? Honestly... It is agreed that the sun is around 5 billion years old.. and can maintain for another 5 billion.. Thats a loooong time. Divide 5 billion by 80(life expectancy?).. Now relate how old you think a person that's 80 is and multiply that by your answer. Yikes.