Watchtower February 5, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member February 5, 2004 BG, point taken. I still have a problem with the man being "the one" I don't know how I'd feel about that if I were a woman. It's basically saying the woman isn't good enough to be the number one.. For some reason.. My understanding is that God made Man, then he made Woman from Man. 1 rib. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConGregation February 5, 2004 Share ConGregation Member February 5, 2004 Watch... these teachings are in the Bible. Myself, as a Bible believer, accept them. You, as a non-Bible believer, do NOT have to accept them. Now if you are attempting to come to terms with the Bible and determine if you can believe it as God's Word, your questioning is warranted. It is very easy for me since I feel that what is taught in the Bible is the very teachings of God. So I'm not bothered if the whole world thinks I'm nuts when I say that a wife should submit to her husband, its them vs God. The whole thing works if the husband loves the wife. Otherwise its a venture into absurdity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower February 7, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member February 7, 2004 The reason I ask is because I know this is supposed to be the word of God. And that's where the questions come in. First I ask myself, why would God even tell us? By communicating in this way, he is acting very "constrained" in how he delivers his message. A God unimaginable and without bounds tells his story like this? An i can't imagine how those exact words that were spoken so long ago have made it to paper and to us unadultrated. I think that is what you are talking about.. I'm trying to figure out if these are really Gods words.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubblegum Bandit February 7, 2004 Share Bubblegum Bandit Member February 7, 2004 Got me a bible thanks to playaa.. I like the part about men ruling over women once married.. Sounds like a servant to me.. Interpretations? Women were made to "complete" man right? And thats what marriage is all about right? Not equal right? Ok Watch, you have sparked me to go back and read the whole passage I spoke of earlier in Ephesians. I have the NIV Life Application Study Bible by Zondervan(I believe this is the same author/footnoter should we say as the Bible that Playaa sent you if I'm not mistaken). The passage is Ephesians 5:22-33. Zondervan has some great footnotes that seem, at least to me, to speak to your exact question. For ease of reference, I will list the word and then referrence it below using the footnotes that I have in my bible. (by the way, this book was written by Paul) Ephesians 5:22-33: (22)Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. (23)For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. (24)Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. (25)Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her (26)to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, (27) and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. (28)In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. (29)After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church- (30)for we are members of his body (31)"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." (32)This is a profound mystery- but I am talking about Christ and the church. (33)However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband. Now, I would like to paraphrase some of the footnotes that are found in my bible: 5:21,22 -Submitting to another person is an often misunderstood concept. It does not mean becoming a doormat....In a marriage relationship, both husband and wife are called to submit. For the wife, this means willingly following her husband's leadership in Christ. For the husband, it means putting aside his own interests in order to care for his wife. Submission is rarely a problem in homes where.....each is concerned for the happiness of the other. 5:22-24 -......This kind of mutual submission preserves order and harmony in the family while it increases love and respect among family members. 5:25-30 -Paul devotes twice as many words to telling husbands to love their wives as to telling wives to submit to their husbands. How should a man love his wife? (1) He should be willing to sacrifice everything for her. (2) He should make her well-being of primary importance. (3) He should care for her as he cares for his own body. No wife needs to fear submitting to a man who treats her in this way. 5:31-33 -The union of husband and wife merges two persons in such a way that little can affect one without also affecting the other. Oneness in marriage does not mean losing your personality in the personality of the other. Instead, it means caring for your spouse as you care for yourself, learning to anticipate his or her needs, helping the other person become all he or she can be. The creation story tells of God's plan that husband and wife should be one (Genesis 2:24), and Jesus also referred to this plan (Matthew 19:4-6) (I found that Matthew seemed to have more bearing on what this thread is about than the Genesis one) I know this is a long post, and I paraphrased some to keep it shorter, but I think, although they say some of the same thing in each one, each one of these has an excellent point to the topic at hand. Now, to the next topic you addressed Watch, How do you know what exactly is God's word? Many people will tell you that what is in the bible is his word straight up. I struggle with this as well. It is hard for me to grasp this when you know that the original bible was written in a/many(not exactly sure) different language/s and you know that someone translated it. I know enough about languages to know that some words when being translated are up for "interpretation" as to which word/phrase of the new language should be used to accurately depict what is being said. In that, the translation can also have the translator's interpretation added some what. I will share with you how I "deal" (for lack of a better word) with it. IMO if you look at the bible, you can take one word or a few words narrowed down and support anything that goes on in the world with it, for example, the "submit" thing we have been talking about. If you only read Ephesians 5:22, the world would be left with dominating men and suffering women. However, if we choose to back away and look at its context, you see what I have tried to explain or actually what I have paraphrased Zondervan explaining. A world that could be full of loving familys with the utmost respect for each other. In other words, I look at as what is the message, not the exact words. Rev, or others may have a totally different view on this, and as is with everything, there are exceptions to the rule. But I find it much easier to translate a message than to try to translate word for word. In my place ATM, I have no doubt in MY mind that the exact words in the bible I quoted from today are not the same that were in the original text, however, I also have no doubt in MY mind that the message grabbed from context here is EXACTLY what God wanted to get across when the bible was translated and written. I hope this helps..... As with you, I am still a little skeptic on this topic, lets see what others have to say about it. Maybe we should even make it a new thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane February 9, 2004 Share jane Member February 9, 2004 ROosTEr,Feb 5 2004, 11:38 AM] because it wasn't meant to be great literature. correction, it is great literature, its not nescessarily great reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane February 9, 2004 Share jane Member February 9, 2004 BG, point taken. I still have a problem with the man being "the one" I don't know how I'd feel about that if I were a woman. It's basically saying the woman isn't good enough to be the number one.. For some reason.. My understanding is that God made Man, then he made Woman from Man. 1 rib. ok read what BG posted. Point is not that God wants us to think of women as less or not equal to men, but that its not their role to be equal. They are meant to be helpers(woman means man's helper). Common counterpoint: Womna have to submit to men, that means men are more or less better than Women, or that they have somehow a harder thing to do(especially with strong-willed women) Common Answer: Try reading a few lines down from that submit statement. It says that men are to love women with the love of God. Essentially that means men are to Love women unconditionally, with no reserve and no wish for anything but the joy of the women. All women are supposed to do is submit. If I had to say anything, women have it easy and shouldnt worry bout the whoel issue. Men have to love the women, women have to submit. I dont know if that answers your q Watch, but basically women are supposed to back guys up when the final descision comes out. Not that they cant add or even argue they own points. The guy just has the final say, being either his, hers, or the amalgamation of both views. Questions? jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower February 9, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member February 9, 2004 "They are meant to be helpers(woman means man's helper).".. Yeah I don't know.. I guess I'm glad I'm not a woman.. Love me with all your heart, but you are still above me. I don't like it. A Woman has to marry then to be worth anything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane February 9, 2004 Share jane Member February 9, 2004 no God has purpose for every person on earth this can mean working together to do His will, or working under God alone to do his will. doesnt matter if you're married or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa February 9, 2004 Share Playaa Member February 9, 2004 "They are meant to be helpers(woman means man's helper).".. Yeah I don't know.. I guess I'm glad I'm not a woman.. Love me with all your heart, but you are still above me. I don't like it. A Woman has to marry then to be worth anything? tell me you read the big post BG made...cause it quite clearly explains it it's nothing to do with being above one another...see you're looking at it from the wrong perspective...you're looking selfishly. You're saying (if you were a woman) that you wouldn't want to be under a man who can dominate you so...you're only thinking of yourself. You're not thinking how you submitting (again not about dominance, about harmony) can help the man and the family. It's the same for guy's who see the verses and TELL women they need to submit...they're thinking selfishly as well. and again, it's not the kind of thing that works if both parties act ONLY if the other one meets thier end of the "bargain"...it's something that needs to be done selflessly by both parties and each person needs to hold up their end no matter what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL February 9, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member February 9, 2004 And I personally don't interpret it as the woman being the "helper of the man". The term his "help-meet" and I see it as both equally helping one another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane February 10, 2004 Share jane Member February 10, 2004 And I personally don't interpret it as the woman being the "helper of the man". The term his "help-meet" and I see it as both equally helping one another. rgr that dweez, i was just explaining where the root comes from. Anypoo, I would like to second what Playaa said. Its all about humility, not selfishness. If I am humble, and honor my wife, then (whether or not she honors me) we will live in more harmony than if we decided to live by our own desires(as opposed to living for the joy and love of the other). Any mistakes in there, dweez? I think you're married right? Tell us what you think about all this(unless I was thinking of some other person who is married.... ) jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL February 10, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member February 10, 2004 Well, I am married but I guess I am not the best person to be discussing marital relations since we are in the process of getting a divorce. (Long story, maybe the FF04'ers will get to hear it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower February 10, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member February 10, 2004 And I personally don't interpret it as the woman being the "helper of the man". The term his "help-meet" and I see it as both equally helping one another. Thats one way to look at it Dweeze.. The other guys don't see it that way. Why can't the man submit to the woman? That's My question.. There is nothing selfish about my views either. If anything I am looking for equality. I am totally the most unselfish person.. To a fault sometimes. Its the fact that man is supposed to have better reasoning or is put at the head of the household for what reason? B.T.W, there has been a womans movement recently that is addressing this exact issue.. i'll look for specifics, but many women are starting to really think about this.. *Edit http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/women.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa February 10, 2004 Share Playaa Member February 10, 2004 Why can't the man submit to the woman? that's what you're missing with the selfish (by that I mean all humans not just you) views. if the man is loving the woman properly then it may be his choice to submit and go with her ideas and ways...that's what love is...it's ALL about comprimise. I think what is not explained is that God views the man as the head of the household in that the man is responsible. Kinda like in the Bible it talks about teachers will be judged more strictly...the man may have to answer for more to God (we don't know) so it really is about comprimise and this issue isn't one that needs to be argued as much as it is. When it comes down to it anyone that will go out of his way to stress to his wife that she needs to obey him, well he isn't really showing much love now is he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa February 10, 2004 Share Playaa Member February 10, 2004 things like that site you posted frustrate me big time. While the comments made by some people (like the one from Martin Luther about not caring about women who die in childbirth) are pathetic...those things should NEVER be said...but at the same time things like this: There are more than 200 bible verses that specifically belittle and demean women. are just idiotic (pardon my zeal here but I'm angry) statements. They twist words and meanings to show their point and are doing nothing but insulting the thing that is my entire life. To me women are treasures to be treated with nothing BUT respect...I will smack any guy who treats a woman disrespectfully...but at the same time I follow the creed that "if she ain't actin like a lady then she isn't one" (same to be said for a "gentleman")...so those women who are distorting the Bible to make a point...they need some good smacks is all I can say.I am going through each one of those things and easily disproving them with one glance...take this for example: Deuteronomy 22:23-24 Woman raped in city, she & her rapist both stoned to death 23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death-the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you. you need to think about the language barrier. Alot of times in languages, phrases or words don't translate directly...but to me that's saying that she let the man sleep with her...clearly NOT rape. Had she cried out and wanted him to stop then it would have been rape. bah...why do you post these things Watch? just to drive me crazy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa February 10, 2004 Share Playaa Member February 10, 2004 BAH! another thing...alot of what they're talking about hasta do with "sexual freedom" that the Bible clearly doesn't support. But feminists frequently talk about the need for women to have "sexual freedom" like men do. First off I look at that like someone saying they need a wallhack to outhack the hackers...it's a stupid statement. Second I am of the FIRM belief that sexual freedom has caused quite a few problems in our society and is NOT a good thing (outside of marriage that is). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaa February 11, 2004 Share Playaa Member February 11, 2004 (edited) case in point. the feminists say: Proverbs 11:22 One of numerous Proverbial putdowns the Bible says: 22 Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a beautiful woman who shows no discretion. I say...CRAP YEAH! I don't know about the rest of you guys...but I get disgusted by slutty girls. (well to be honest I get disgusted mentally while other parts of me aren't disgusted...but that's not by my choice) *edit* GAH! I'm going insane Isaiah 3:16-17 God scourges, rapes haughty women Isaiah 3:16 The LORD says, "The women of Zion are haughty, walking along with outstretched necks, flirting with their eyes, tripping along with mincing steps, with ornaments jingling on their ankles. 17 Therefore the Lord will bring sores on the heads of the women of Zion; the LORD will make their scalps bald." again, first off...they use the word Rape to stir up emotion when in fact the Bible doesn't say that. Secondly I'm of the opinion that the women of Zion were doing things displeasing to God (again with the sexual freedom thing) and God punished...bleh...I really need to stop reading this...it's ruining my night. *edit edit* GAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH!!! (thanks watch) they use Matthew 24:19 as a reason the Bible hates women? read it...it clearly just says "it's gonna suck to have a baby at that time and be a Christian"...I wonder why it will suck? It must be because the Bible says women are evil and have absolutely NOTHING to do with the prophesied persecution of Christians...nothing at all. ok...I'm beyond tinkled and I'm done now Edited February 11, 2004 by Playaa/Pselus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower February 11, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member February 11, 2004 Sorry Playaa.. Another thing I find troubling is say a wholesome christian couple gets married. The woman is very headstrong and both very religous. She is not going to bow and give "ultimate responsibility" to the man. The man is going to go by his bible and say He makes the ultimate important decisions.. I see this causing major problems.. In the day and age when women didn't work(40 years ago), this could more easily pan out. The woman were seen as only being "barefoot and pregnant".. Many people to this day hold this view. Why? Now you could argue that that Is their strong point and their most worthy duty. Society is going down the drain because the women are out in the workplace and straying from their "womanly" duties. Taking a more literal approach with the verses concerning women. but good luck making that argument. Times they are a changin. And I think people are more apt to just forget about what the bible says in this case.. And don't get me started on the whole servant thing.. How did we justify slavery in early America?? Man I shouldn'ta done that *Edit. I guess it just gets me how we think it's soooo clear today when just a few years ago it was taken a totally different way.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preacher February 11, 2004 Share Preacher Member February 11, 2004 Ok, this is one of the most controversial subjects that effects the church, year after year. I think the Joyce Meyer's series "Freedom Through Submission" was one of the best Biblical interpretations of the subject I have heard to date. I normally find her annoying because she is so "head strong" but in her theology, I have yet to find a flaw. (Theology is how she teaches the Bible and what she expresses as her beliefs) In this series she states that to submit to your "husband" is detrimental, not because it makes it easier with one head of the house, or that it keeps the peace, or that it takes away from you as a woman. Instead God designed man and wife as the perfect symbiotic relationship. The responsibility of the household falls on the man of the house (like dweez stated above) but there needs to be an understanding of what that entails. The best way that I can explain it is like a store owner(husband) and a store manager(wife). The owner is effected by every decision made by the manager, but if it's a bad decision then the owner pays for it. Likewise good decisions reward the owner. A good store owner is involved with all major decisions, but doesn't sit around and bark orders. There are lots of examples in scripture where a woman is in charge of things. Paul praises women prophetesses and teachers and the whole tribe of Israel was saved on several occasions, do to women. The "place" of the woman in the home is like the place of the salt shaker next to the pepper. Man shouldn't Lord over his wife anymore than a wife should Lord over her husband. The fact of the matter is, at least in my marriage, that without the help of the wife many decisions cannot be made at all, or would be made poorly. The womans liberation and sexual freedom movements have done almost nothing for women. They now have families that are deprived of a mother and divorce rates that are out of control. Women aren't happy and they aren't going to be as long as they stray from God's design. Paul said Man should love his wife as Christ loves the church and women should submit to thier husbands as they submit to God. God never asks us to do anything wrong and Jesus wants only what is best for the church. If this model is followed, then the marriage will last and happiness will be found. I've been married a while (just celebrated my 10th anniversary) and boy have we gone through it. At times it seamed very reasonable to split up, at others it seamed like the only option. I dealt with my wife's alcoholism and other addictions. It was really hard, but by weathering the storms we are a much stronger couple now. I'm not saying I know all the answers, but I've learned a few through experience. Well God bless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jane February 11, 2004 Share jane Member February 11, 2004 And don't get me started on the whole servant thing.. How did we justify slavery in early America?? Man I shouldn'ta done that UGH. What? If you're gonna go with that whole sadistic twisting of the bible that a good majority of white guys did(and have done since forever, not just in America), just drop it now. Slavery is not condoned in the bible; it is spoken about in an "if" statement, which would coincide with a principle, not a rule or a law. The bible speaks to slaves and it speaks to masters, on how to treat each other. It was a way of life back then, and somewhat now. Dont get me wrong, there is no justification in the bible for slavery. None. Read it for proof. It just shows, if you are in such a situation how to glorify God in every situation you may find yourself in. OK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower February 11, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member February 11, 2004 "The womans liberation and sexual freedom movements have done almost nothing for women. They now have families that are deprived of a mother and divorce rates that are out of control. Women aren't happy and they aren't going to be as long as they stray from God's design." This is what I was looking for.. Thank you Preacher. Everyone always has to PC their views these days.. Now on slavery. Everyone seemed to have Manservants and Maidservants.. = Slavery. Sure they treated them well. Well some of them. Slavery is not condoned in the bible? Show me where it spoken against? Not gonna happen.. Slavery and the bible Just regulation.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL February 11, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member February 11, 2004 Watch, slavery was different back then. Often (though not always), people sold themselves into slavery. It was a 7-year thing (like the endentured servants who sold themselves to pay for passage over to America). After the seven years were up, if they felt they were treated well by their "master", they could agree to be a servant to them for life. Often, slaves were treated as adopted children, enjoying all the rights and inheritance of the father just as if they were natural children. Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers. Because during that time, he still tried to honor God in all things, he prospered and was soon one of the leaders of all Egypt, second only to the Pharoh. Daniel and his three buddies also prospered during the Babylonian captivity because they chose to honor God in all things even while captives. Soon they found themselves as the major advisors to the king. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower February 12, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member February 12, 2004 So being a slave isn't all that bad huh? lol wow. Is this crazy or what? Anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL February 12, 2004 Share dwEEziL Member February 12, 2004 No, not "isn't"..."wasn't". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchtower February 12, 2004 Author Share Watchtower Member February 12, 2004 Would you be happy becoming a slave and doing the bidding of your master? If it was, shouldn't it still be? you've Got to be kidding! Then why should we no longer have slavery.. Or do you believe we still should or do.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.