LaG, MCC, and why I left Mmmm

[Guest [Mmmm]Dirk_Nowitzki]

Things were going great. Platinum was so full we didn't have enough reserves for even the admins. Not even I could get in. Then everything changed...

 

This is the part where I'm the bad guy.

 

1. People were beginning to complain about our adminning.

Not entirely sure what to attribute this to, but people were getting kicked regularly for saying things they shouldn't have been kicked for, like damn.

I realize that we were trying to keep a clean server, but at some point you're crossing the line between keeping a server clean and becoming too strict. Many of us (myself included) were being too strict, while others would come in the server and would allow TKers to go nuts.

 

2. The web became much more difficult to work with.

I designed the old Mmmm site and kept it up with Fatty's help. It looked nice but was hard to work with. We lost our previous site hosting due to an apparent accounting mishap, and had to go with another web host. Not a big deal I thought, still probably isn't in hind-sight, but it turned out to be very difficult to work with at the time. Without going into detail, Fat and I couldn't work on each others pages. This meant if anything had to be changed, the person who uploaded it had to change it. This meant that if something needed to be changed on the homepage for instance, I had to change it. At the time I was immensely busy at work and simply didn't have the time to dedicate to the site. I can't really blame anyone for the situation, sometimes things happen.

 

3. I was tired of some of the attitudes our guild had developed.

Both as a guild and individually. The holier-than-thou thing was going a little too far. I mean we were here to have a good time, play CS, and interact with good people. That's what makes this community special. Do unto others rings a bell.

 

There apparently were others that felt the same as I did as it turned out, and they wanted to see if we could start another guild or join an existing one. As I remember, everyone we asked to join us went with one exception, and he said he wanted to wait and see what happened. I haven't heard back from them nor am I planning on asking them again. They know who they are.

So we started LaG (Laidback Admin Guild).

 

So why didn't we just confront the others?

And say what? We're tired of the way you guys admin, we don't like a lot of your attitudes right now and we want out? Somehow I don't think Fat would have been very receptive to that. Call it a hunch.

 

As it turns out, I had Plat taken away from me in an unrelated incident, and I fought VERY hard to get it back. I thought I would do something for the community and give them a server everyone could play on, and in fact gave admin to members from almost every guild/clan. But it rarely got used, and LaG didn't have a home server, so recently I changed it [LaG]Platinum T3, but didn't remove anyone's admin.

 

Which brings us to yesterday. I was havin friendly convo about the community with some people and found out about this thing that happened with Lep, and we brainstormed and came up with some things we thought might improve the MCC, such as give the community it's own name (CCC) and get a site going for it (ccccs.com or something). You could go there to change your teams rosters and other stuff. It's not really that big a deal, but I thought I would tell Fat and give him my ideas. He listened and we debated the issues, which was fine with me. I'm not even in the MCC, nor can I even read what goes on in the forums. All is fine with me.

In fact Fatty does a great job as commissioner and I can't imagine anyone else doing it.

But then last night someone tells me that he posted our private conversation in Mmmm's private forums for everone to read, and I basically get reamed for 'sticking my nose in their business'. This is the kind of classless act that made us all leave Mmmm in the first place. This is why I debated offering any suggestions at all. Now I don't know exactly who said what, aor who in Mmmm has a problem with me, but I haven't changed my AIM so I know they know where to find me...

 

But that's the reader's digest version of why I personally left Mmmm, and why I'm going to try to make LaG a good part of this community. I didn't post this as an advertisement for LaG, Platinum, or myself. I did it because people still are complaining that I never explained myself. So now I have.

 

Again I'm only speaking for myself, not anyone else.

[Guest UberNewb]

On some of those points, Dirk, I feel that you're saying what a lot of people are thinking. But I'm too tired to elaborate right now, so I'm gonna leave it at that. Maybe someone else can take it from there.

[DJ Premier]

This is an interesting post. I'm glad someone finally came out and explained what had happened. Don't get me wrong, I had heard bits and pieces of what happened but this puts a little clarity to things. But given that, there are always 2 sides to every story. 3 if you count the truth.

 

There is probably some merit to what is said here. I have my own reservations about certain issues but these statements are very bold but oddly have some semblance of truth to them.

 

1. People were beginning to complain about our adminning.

I think this had a lot to do with the garbage that was played on plat. Things happened on a constant basis. The server was almost out of control in my opinion. The regulars and new folks alike were a little bit rowdier than the other servers in the community. I think the different styles of admining you are referring to was due to the level of agreement vs disagreement in the new policy of zero tolerance. People in DOH are guilty of the same thing on fox, but I don't think anyone can be blamed for having a different level of tolerance than the next person. But I do see some of your points on this.

 

2. The web became much more difficult to work with.

 

Well, this seems besides the point and was probably added on to give yourself 1 more reason than you needed. At least that's how it appears.

 

3. I was tired of some of the attitudes our guild had developed.

 

Given that human psychology tends to make someone say the best first or last, I would assume this is probably the biggest reason you left.

 

I think there is some truth to this as well. But I think in some sense Mmmm has a right to feel they are a bit superior to the rest of the community. It probably stems from the fact that while most of the clans here, (DLM/DOH) excluded, have not been around too long, they have prospered. Mmmm has been around the block and has had its share of ups and downs. Even after the Mmmm split into Mmmm and DOH (which in my mind was a big deal), the Mmmm legacy lived on. But does that give someone the right to condescend? No. Does it give someone the right to belittle others? No. But, a community needs a community head. Especially for things like community events. There needs to be a host. The reason I say this is because I've been down the 100% democracy road. It doesn't work. I've tried doing it over a year and a half ago with BlackOps and over a year with DOH. DOH actually does run itself. But we do need leadership too. Different ppl fill different roles and take leadership as needed. End point? Every group needs a lead. I think Mmmm is doing a good job in this role. The fact that Mmmm is also a highly religious clan probably makes the "holier-than-thou" statement more true than most can digest. It also makes the rules a little more strict and the governing body act a certain way.

 

Honestly, we could probably use less of the iron fist in this community. But for what its worth, I don't think this community would have much w/o Mmmm. There would be no MCC, no league at all, no gossipy forums and no iron fist either. Someone needs to step up and I think fatty and his crew has.

 

In the end, the point is that a community doesn't run itself. The egos involved would be outrageous. But the governing body itself shouldn't have an air of superiority either. "Gracious host" ring a bell?

 

Trust me, there are many things I disagree with. If I posted them here, it would probably cause a big stir. I'm not sure where it would lead anyways. I think some of your ideas are good ones. The CCC thing would be a good start. But that in itself needs a governing body and given the way the board room discussions were going regarding the Lep/Quick thing, I don't think the board room is the right group to make quick decisions and we can't debate for days on every issue but that's probably how it will turn out.

[linch]

Anyone going to take my bet this topic gets closed or moved?

 

[whiplash]

Anyone going to take my bet this topic gets closed or moved?

 

Hmmmm, Once fatty reads it..

[[Mmmm]SparkyTech]

He's read it...

 

Everyone is free to be full of it

 

 

I'm sure there are allot of sides to all issues.

 

I personally don't know half of what Dirk is talking about.

 

If he didn't like the rules and conditions of the server, that's his own concern. I myself have let "damn" go, but when people are saying G-Damn, and Oh my...... I warn, then kick if they keep doing it.

 

Civil discourse is fine, but leadership is there to lead and Fat is our Leader.

 

I support Fat and appreciate all he and every Mmmm have put into this Guild.

 

If you dissagree to the point you wish to leave the group, then you are free to do so. But trying to take others with you or stirr up things is more sour grapes if you ask me.

 

Just my $0.02.

 

[Guest [Mmmm]Dirk_Nowitzki]

SparkyTech,Nov 20 2002, 07:51 AM]He's read it... 

 

Everyone is free to be full of it

 

 

I'm sure there are allot of sides to all issues.

 

I personally don't know half of what Dirk is talking about.

 

If he didn't like the rules and conditions of the server,  that's his own concern.  I myself have let "damn" go, but when people are saying G-Damn, and Oh my...... I warn, then kick if they keep doing it.

 

Civil discourse is fine, but leadership is there to lead and Fat is our Leader.

 

I support Fat and appreciate all he and every Mmmm have put into this Guild.

 

If you dissagree to the point you wish to leave the group, then you are free to do so.  But trying to take others with you or stirr up things is more sour grapes if you ask me.

 

Just my $0.02.

 

Sparky -

 

You were hardly around to know what was going on, only what you read in the forums. Not that that's a bad thing: real life is always more important than CS.

 

In fact the inactives were another thing that some of the other guys that left were bothered by - we had a roster of 15 of which 7 of us played regularly. This didn't bother me so much, was more trouble to remove them from the homepage than it was worth to me.

[Fatty]

I don't believe I was classless in asking my guild's opinion of your ideas. What part of our conversation should have remained private and why? I really didn't see the harm in it. I didn't blast you, but simply said: tell me what you think about this. In the same post, you call my actions classless, but talk about wanting to stick around in the same community. At the same rate, for whatever the reasons you left, I think Mmmm owes you a thanks. Our family has tightened and we, as always, have grown stronger into the next chapter.

 

It's probably better that all this came to a head anyways. It was only a matter of time, and, like I've been saying since you guys left, I'm tired of the whispering.

 

Of course it's a little offending to the host of a league when someone says: Here, let's do this and this to make your league better. Add to that it comes from someone who just played part in a mutany and what on Earth would you expect? Seriously?

 

I've got no problems with you, I've got no secrets from anyone. We can fill in the hole here and post the entire conversation for the public if you want so they can understand what we talked about. Doesn't matter either way.

 

Point blank, if you're (all readers) one that enjoys the soap opera, then you really don't belong around here. That's what we DON'T need. My time is put in running a league that should be centered on clean, competitive matches. We're not in our 4th season for no reason.

 

I don't do anything to be popular. I'm used to a few people not liking what I do or how I do it. I try to involve good people in the decision making process of everything that goes on. In the end, not everyone is going to be happy. In the end, there's plenty that means more to me than the current opinion poll.

 

Fatty

[MC_Ranger]

Dirk,

 

To the best of my knowledge nobody in Mmmm has anything against you (or any of the other members that left). I think, ultimately, we were hurt at the split - but there's no hate involved with the individuals. Any harsh feelings are probably directed on how the split happened.

 

We can debate all day long the why's and how's of the members that left Mmmm, but I'm not sure anything positive would come of it. What's done is done. (if you were referring to me as the individual who never responded during the break-up: I waited a couple days to get both sides of the story and then I chose to stay with Mmmm. I did communicate this with boomstick and wished him well. If you weren't referring to me, ignore that part).

 

The conversations we've had in our private boards is nothing new. Whenever something that effects the group comes up, it generally gets posted and people shoot out their opinions.

 

That is how we communicate and keep things clear and in the open. I don't think there was any malice in Fat posting the conversation. You approached him as a representative of some community members and he, as a good leader, relayed that information to his team.

 

I would be upset if he DIDN'T communicate these types of conversations. If its going to impact Mmmm, I want to know about it.

 

Can Fat be a Bastard sometimes? Yes. And if he was any different, I think Mmmm would have faded away a long time ago.

[yErMoTH3r]

m0m would like to comment here.

 

do you like vanilla or chocolate?

 

i mean

 

1. People were beginning to complain about our adminning.

girlies complain about my admining all the time. i just 15min ban then and be done with it. or i make mcearp bind the f word to their mouse1 and kick them for excessive swearing.

 

2. The web became much more difficult to work with.

linux n00b

[gOOters]

Hmmm, let me start out by saying that CS is really just a game for me. My real life takes alot of time and is my primary concern. However, I do respect that CS is more for many people...I think Fat or Rev described it once as more of a hobby than just a game. So...take my opinion with a grain of salt here.

 

I don't care about politics, I don't really care what people think of me, I do like just jumping into the game and fraggin. I have never been in a clan b4 Mmmm. That should speak volumes for Mmmm, I never considered it worth my time and effort to have to get along with "computer friends" before Mmmm. I loved my time in Mmmm, I still love Mmmm (that even includes the Bastard who is Fat ) In fact, I ESPECIALLY like Fat. I think in many ways Fat is the glue that helps keep this community together. He spares alot of his free time to keep this ship strong and afloat. Having said that, I felt like my voice wasn't being heard on a couple of important decisions that happened within Mmmm. This was the main reason that I decided to leave. That, and it often seemed that there were only about 3 or so of us who ever played regularly. I really came close to just being clanless again. One of the main reasons that I joined LaG is because it helped me still feel connected to the community. I have never had any hard feelings with any of Mmmm, and still don't. It was just not the right fit for me anymore.

 

About Dirk's post, I think that his reasons were different from mine, they were still valid reasons however. And about Fat's post of their conversation, I don't think that was wrong/inappropriate. However, Dirk stuck his neck out in a congenial manner and if he got blasted...I could see why he would be hurt/upset. This is just my humble opinion. Well, this is as far as I have ever gotten involved in my "CS" life and I will prolly just go back to the game now. To me scopin in with my Nub AWP is what it is all about. Hope to see you guys in the game!

[Guest [Mmmm]Dirk_Nowitzki]

There's no question I'm a linux n00b. Plan on getting more familiar with it in all this spare time I have.

[Playaa]

Through my time on the internet and as a gamer I've been part of quite a few communities...(though most were back in the day when a 56k was a solid connection)

and I've never seen a community in which I would be prouder to be part of. I would be exstatic to be part of any clan/guild in this community. I think you should all realize how lucky everyone of us is to be able to enjoy gaming with so many great ppl...and yes I also believe without Fat this place would cease to exist or at least turn into every other anarchistic community out there...

 

my 2 cents...worth less to some...

[Guest Mossad]

We could all go on and bicker about all the probs that this community has, but we could also go on longer about why this community is so great and has lasted so long. Just keep that in mind while this peaceful argument unfolds.

[gOOters]

Nice m0ss, and tru. I dont even see any arguing. This is just a lets get everything in the open discussion, as I see it.

[[Mmmm]Homer]

I'll post not to inflame, but for some closure on this issue.

 

I found Dirk's post interesting because just like when DOH split I didn't have a clue what was going on. I had no idea there were 'issues' or personality differences. I had no idea a split was in the works, and I tend to be around a little more than Sparky.

 

MC Ranger and I were asked to be in LaG but we both declined.

 

I know on Plat the [Mmmm] admins got hosed occaisionally on adminning style, but when I got the brunt of the community it was for changing the map to starwars or fy_iceworld. I was bored with dust/dust2/italy/moredust. I don't really recall personally being attacked for banning. A couple of issues were solved in the Got Banned? forum, which helped out a few folks.

 

Ok, so the web was a pain.....

 

Fatty sharing Mmmm business is nothing new, he did it before the split too when it was called for. When it concerns the team the team gets consulted, Fatty is not the dictator of Mmmm. No news there. For the community - there was nothing in the conversation between Fatty and Dirk that would put either in a bad light, it was just each other finding out what they thought of the issues that Dirks post describes. Mmmm members general attitude was posted more or less as "the MCC is successful as it is now, let's not change the formula".

 

As for the religeous thing, [Mmmm] has to be all inclusive IMHO. This may be news to 90% of the Mmmm's but I'm an atheist. So what? I respect those with religeous views. Nothing more, nothing less. The Mmmm's are a great bunch of guys no matter their beliefs, most especially Fatty because of his leadership and willingness to step in and deal with the everyday operations of maintaining the site, server, MCC, and community. And I'm not Fatty's Fanboy, I believe he's learned alot from everything Mmmm has been through and become a better leader for it.

 

I agree that were all weakened by the latest split, but the newest [Mmmm] is on its way to a full recovery with a prognosis of being closer than ever.

[Gunman]

<sings> I like big butts and I cannot lie.....all yall otha brothas cant deny!

 

etc...etc...

 

Those are my two cents!

 

POOF!

 

Gunman

[Guest the mack]

i agree with gunman (remeber its a game)

[Guest [DLM]->MP_Stinger]

wait a minute if itss laid back admin then how is El_Barto in it

[Watchtower]

I'm with Homer.. holier than thou? We are a very diverse bunch. Some not holy at All! And the fact that Fat stands up for what he believes in brings him all that much more respect than a person believing what others are saying(lemmings off a cliff anyone?). We've had people complaining about Mmmm admining since day one.. How many of you'se remember those days? Have we changed anything? Not really. Do we still have alot of really cool ppl to play with? Yes. In the process did we weed out countless numbers of undesirables and the like? Yes. Bottom line is the plan was to break apart and start what was deemed a "better" idea (laid back, instead of up tight right?) and it's failing.. Booo Hooo. What Should of happened was, "Hey Fat, a couple of us here are talking and not really seeing eye to eye on this "purification" thing. Who knows, maybe we could of added another "trailerpark" for those that werent interested in the style of admining on the main server if the concern was that great. Didn't happen like that.. Shadiness(sp). i'm sorry, but it's happened to me(us) before, and in real life as well and stuff like that Really gets my goat. hope everyones happy cause We are!! and it's not like the majority spoke here.. From what i've gathered, the majority of the community Loves the way we(not me:)) admin. That's what has always set us apart. We are proud of that. And we will stand by that.

Viva Le Mmmm.

p.s I hope that dosent come off to harsh, because I enjoyed those that left..

[Guest kamiux]

you all have very nice writing skills, ever think of writing for readers digest?

teehee

[[Mmmm]SparkyTech]

I did, but they wouldn't publish it without swear words so I withdrew the manuscript...

 

 

[Gunman]

Like i said before....

 

<sings> I like big butts and I cannot lie.....all yall otha brothas cant deny!

 

etc...etc...

 

Those are my two cents!

 

POOF!  

 

Gunman....BTW I LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WEEEE VICATIN IS SWEET!!!!

[MikioZen]

1. People were beginning to complain about our adminning.

Not entirely sure what to attribute this to, but people were getting kicked regularly for saying things they shouldn't have been kicked for, like damn.

I realize that we were trying to keep a clean server, but at some point you're crossing the line between keeping a server clean and becoming too strict. Many of us (myself included) were being too strict, while others would come in the server and would allow TKers to go nuts.

 

*Cough * Boblee... Boblee... Boblee...

[[Mmmm]Homer]

Bob Lee is cool in my book. If he kicked you it was your own fault.