Guest Talent April 30, 2003 Share Guest Talent Guests April 30, 2003 i was banned, it was outside of game so i'd assume fat did it and posting my wonID now would be hasty. just wondering the reason and the length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConGregation April 30, 2003 Share ConGregation Member April 30, 2003 Sorry about that. I thought an explanation had been given. Basically we banned for verbally assaulting a Mmmm member. The bad attitude in the whole situation was a contributing factor. We debated quite a bit about what to do. But we felt the need to take this action to make a statement that such name calling (even on AIM) will not be tolerated. We, as a guild, feel it is imperative that we stand up for one another. Attack one and you are attacking us all. That said, we know that things can be "said" in the heat of the moment and if we are given a repentant statement for said actions, Im sure this can be resolved satisfactorily to all involved. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Talent April 30, 2003 Share Guest Talent Guests April 30, 2003 so is the ban permanent or time based? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConGregation April 30, 2003 Share ConGregation Member April 30, 2003 Permanent. Why would you even ask that question? If we ask for an apology but you dont want to give it, maybe you could just wait until the ban was over? OR... you felt the punishment of offering an apology would only be worth it if the ban was more than a week or two? Im not really sure how to react to that. Maybe enlighten me as to the rationale as I realize I can miss an angle to a situation altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Talent April 30, 2003 Share Guest Talent Guests April 30, 2003 a permanent ban for stating my beliefs is harsh and the fact that you would ban before discussing with me does not motivate me to act in any way to remedy the situation, in fact it only reinforces my past views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConGregation April 30, 2003 Share ConGregation Member April 30, 2003 You were not banned for "stating your beliefs" Did we ban Tek and everyother poster that complained about third party maps? I feel you are trying to avoid the real reason and make yourself appear like a totally innocent bystander. You were banned because of the way you "stated your beliefs" and the names you addressed our member with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Talent April 30, 2003 Share Guest Talent Guests April 30, 2003 i re-read the convo since i haved it saved, and i did not call gunman any names throughout the whole conversation. and if you don't like a harsh tone....then i'm sorry but i'm blunt and i wanted to go play and not spend time tip-toeing around. but i guess either you didn't get the real facts, or it has been twisted...yet again. as i said in an earlier post, its better when you aren't given a reason to be bitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatty April 30, 2003 Share Fatty GC Founder April 30, 2003 Your brother told us he informed you? Guess not, no matter. If you reread the conversation and saw nothing wrong with it, then I guess you'll just have to go complain about someone else's server. Nobody twisted anything, sorry. Gunman handled the conversation perfectly, even when you continued to raise the room temperature. Any reason not to post the conversation here, Rev? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Talent April 30, 2003 Share Guest Talent Guests April 30, 2003 (edited) Lance034: are you going to a real map anytime soon? GunmanOwns: nah Lance034: =/ Lance034: why not? GunmanOwns: because GunmanOwns: it is prime time mode GunmanOwns: /Daytime Lance034: prime time should be regular maps GunmanOwns: daytime isny Lance034: you have 5 ppl playing... GunmanOwns: yeah and 12 dlin the map Lance034: 9 d/ling the map... Lance034: but why not play a map everyone has? GunmanOwns: like what? dust? GunmanOwns: lmao Lance034: dust2 GunmanOwns: lol GunmanOwns: daytime mode dude Lance034: the cal de_ maps are better than any custom Lance034: dude Lance034: i have been watching the server since 2pm central GunmanOwns: You are barkin up the way wrong tree bud Lance034: and its been on a non custom once GunmanOwns: yeah GunmanOwns: exactly GunmanOwns: talk to mrX GunmanOwns: or Fatty GunmanOwns: not me Lance034: ...w/e i'll just find a new server GunmanOwns: it was a clan decision to move to modes GunmanOwns: ok GunmanOwns: have fun! GunmanOwns: :-) Lance034: it was a dumb decision IMO GunmanOwns: Go play on your server then... Lance034: i wanted to pub... Lance034: but i guess the "community" has decided happy 3rd party maps are cool GunmanOwns: simma down na! Lance034: its dumb....i want to practice but i can't Lance034: b/c i'd have to d/l every damn map the server goes to Lance034: and that is not fun at all GunmanOwns: practice on YOUR server then GunmanOwns: dont you have one? Lance034: its private for scrims and matches GunmanOwns: oh GunmanOwns: sorry GunmanOwns: Not much else I can say GunmanOwns: Just that the maps are there for fun Lance034: ...you could try not playing custom 24/7 GunmanOwns: we dont Lance034: they aren't fun when you play them 24/7 GunmanOwns: we dont Lance034: get a log of how mnay times you play a cal de_ map a day Lance034: and get back to me GunmanOwns: No thanks Lance034: b/c you know its once a day tops GunmanOwns: I just dont understand why you take it up with me and not Fatty or someone else...I cant really do anything because, like i said, it was a clan decision GunmanOwns: and if it sucks in your opinion just dont play on trop anymore than GunmanOwns: we have merit GunmanOwns: play there Lance034: b/c you are the only admin connecting right now Lance034: it has 0 ppl Lance034: quit feeding me bullpoop GunmanOwns: I will discuss this conversation with my clanmates GunmanOwns: word for word Lance034: ... GunmanOwns: ... what? Lance034: i just want to know why you are against regular maps and refuse to change them GunmanOwns: If you think I am gonna change the map because YOU want to play a different one you are dead wrong GunmanOwns: all maps are voted on GunmanOwns: ALL of them Lance034: and and 90% of the time time GunmanOwns: the majority voted for deadlock Lance034: it is 3 custom maps up there to vote on mmk there it is, find where i called him a name. Edited April 30, 2003 by Talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatty April 30, 2003 Share Fatty GC Founder April 30, 2003 I think Rev was thinking of something else. Not sure. You didn't "call a name." Nobody based anything or any decision on "name-calling." Gunman didn not run home and say, "Talent called me a name." Chalk yourself up as bitter, mark yourself as banned. You were offensive to say the least. Next argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConGregation April 30, 2003 Share ConGregation Member April 30, 2003 My apologies for the error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeabos April 30, 2003 Share Zeabos Member April 30, 2003 (edited) nm i shouldnt be posting here.. Edited April 30, 2003 by Zeabos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draco April 30, 2003 Share Draco Member April 30, 2003 post up on what talent said, i think everyone that doesnt know whats going on is interested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Premier April 30, 2003 Share DJ Premier Member April 30, 2003 I'm beginning to see something now. I have contemplated posting something to this for a little bit and I've went both ways but I think its just best to lay out my thoughts. Hopefully, they will be constructive. I'm actually quite surprised by this thread, whether I should be at this point or not is a completely different topic. I felt about a month ago that maybe something just wasn't quite right here and I gave the place the benefit of the doubt and chalked it up as my own negativity lately and decided to take a step back. Upon taking a step back and taking a moment to look at this from a more objective level, I'm beginning to realize that there is a simple pattern developing here. I guess it should have been obvious given the length of time I've been around but call me stupid cuz I just realized it now. I remember back in MCC3, DOH was the dominant force in match play. It was basically a lopsided tourney where there wasn't really too much even competition that went around. That time, I guess you would say that DOH was in its height of community match play. I think it went to our heads at that point. We became arrogant and I could tell that many factions of the community was against us whether they publicly displayed it or not. Then came MCC4. DOH was no longer at the top of its game and was pretty much on steady decline from competitive play. But lets introduce MwR. MwR was a moderate clan to begin with and were a very humble and honest clan filled with clean teambased play, whether they played publicly or not. But as the season progressed and MwR started doing well, I feel they caught the arrogance bug. Many factions of the communnity was against them whether they publicly displayed it or not. Now...we have what appears to be Mmmm moving to the top. But not in match play but in public community. Now I have to say, getting to the top in public community is far more noble and rewarding that simply winning a tournament. But once again, I believe that the arrogance bug has been spread and many factions of the community is against them now, whether they publicly display it or not. Now, I don't fault DOH, MwR or Mmmm TOO much for these things. It's natural behavior and if one doesn't concentrate to keep it at bay, it pretty much just takes over. That being said, I find that this thread is all too similar to the rest. It's not really about Talent being banned but its in the method of delivery of the messages to a non-Mmmm person in a position of little to no power. Frankly, I'm a bit astonished by the AIM discussion. Not too much by Talent (he always seems bitter so its nothing new) but much more so by Gunman. In the days when we all struggled to get ppl to come to our servers, we always strove to keep the community members happy. If you played on Mmmm and you were a regular and you asked if you could get a map change, you would get a friendly response whether it resulted in a map change or not. Same thing on LC, DOH, etc. That is because the community leaders and server admins realized that a community is nothing if its not for the members and regulars. We all had similar visions about keeping a TK/FF, spam & profanity free server and environment for us all. Some of us prospered while others failed but we all were pretty happy go lucky and willing to bend over backwards to get a decent fun game going. Now that we see now is that the attitude has shifted. It's less about the ppl in the community. The attitude has shifted from "come one, come all and we'll make sure this place is a clean fun place to be" to "we'll basically enforce the will of the server owner and if you don't like it, you can just leave". In almost every heated thread in the past 30 days, the phrase "if you don't like it, you can just leave" has been mentioned. I think something is seriously wrong with this. Not only does it breed negativity, but it also breeds passive aggressive behavior in those who feel they have been mocked but are too scared to say something. I guess it all boils down to the fact that one can afford to have this newfound behavior since there's a line outside the door with ppl who want in, but in the long term, I can see negative things happening and we have already seen some of it. There is much bickering and silent resentment going around these days. Is it the fault of the dirty regular or could some fault be on the governance structure as well? I say its both. When I see a whole mess of posts in the forums caveated with "don't take this the wrong way" or "this is just my opinion" or "i'm just trying to be constructive" to prevent getting either publicly flogged by fellow regulars, banned or outright deleted by admins, or when I see private conversations where one says, "of course I'm going to the LAN, I'm not gonna let a few ppl ruin my chances of meeting ppl I DO wanna meet" or "don't say it, you'll ge banned", it tends to open ones eyes. Now I'm not sure what effect this post is going to have. But I guarantee that when you first read it, you'll automatically get defensive. I know since I've seen the other side. But read it for what it is trying to say, w/o the protective goggles and hopefully you will get a glimpse at the spirit of what I'm trying to say. Now, to end this, I'm not going to yell "delete my account!" or "I'm leaving!". I'll still be around, hoping for improvement, not only in the governance but in the regulars and myself and I'll help where I can but one has to recognize that there, in fact, is a problem in order to start the healing process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draco April 30, 2003 Share Draco Member April 30, 2003 wow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Premier May 1, 2003 Share DJ Premier Member May 1, 2003 Draco, I long for the days when ppl asked for a map change and one responded with "sure" or "well, we're trying to give customs a chance, maybe the map afterwards?" instead of "if you don't like it, leave". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatty May 1, 2003 Share Fatty GC Founder May 1, 2003 Whoa just a second. Here's the request: Lance034: are you going to a real map anytime soon? You know darn well what that means. Where did Gunman go wrong here? He deferred to the senior members that actually insert and remove maps from voting. I know, DJ, you see everything now as the "play elsewhere if you don't like it" translation. For many, that IS very much the case. But much of this is a defense because of the assault that is taking place. You can't honestly tell me that Talent walked into this with a request in mind. I don't need to be defensive, because part of what you say is true, the fact that we are sending a strict message to many clients that involves a choice on their part. Yes, the community has grown, and with that comes the very sour fact that we can afford to be honest with punk attitudes that more or less flame us, our decisions, etc. I've read that conversation probably 10 times, starting with the heat of the moment, the defensive mode, the next day, and even again just now. It still stinks of the same thing: a continually unhappy client who feels it's his right to tell you how dumb some sort of change in the server is (an no, this isn't the first time Talent has shared this with his attitude). You say you've been there DJ? So, in hindsight...I'd seriously love to hear how you would have responded to this. Gunman was passive the entire time, while Talent went for more and more. For an attitude like that, heck ya the answer is "well then go away." The problem is you don't hear from all the happy clients in here, nor in the whispers around other forums or in irc or in aim. You don't much hear about the people that pose questions and are answered. This is complete crap, and to somehow shift the blame around on us for being popular is a terrible way of justifying this. Heck ya I defend Gunman, and I won't, not even for a second, try to decipher some sort of constructiveness out of Talent's words, because there isn't a bit in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatty May 1, 2003 Share Fatty GC Founder May 1, 2003 As I think about it more...why are a lot of the problems coming from long-standing "community members"? Maybe it's the fact that when a room of 20 people turns into a room of 200, they realize that they have to stomp their feet when they're unhappy. Yes, I'm sorry, but I equate this thread, that conversation to a tantrum. It's full of selfishness, packed full of it. It's all about what one person wants, and frankly, there seem to be lots of people throwing tantrums about any change at all that goes on around here. One thing I don't understand, DJ, is the fact that you and I have discussed the negativity flying around. The post here is a one-sided bucket of negativity, only faced with a confident guildmate who doesn't crumble under the offensiveness of the complainer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwEEziL May 1, 2003 Share dwEEziL Member May 1, 2003 DJ, I understand your post and you probably have several valid points (I don't think I have been here long enough to properly agree or disagree) but I think you are missing the obvious here. The majority of posts Talent has made lately have been teeming with bitterness and ill-will for some unknown (to me) reasons, whether imagined or not. Is there a paradigm shift here in this community? Maybe, maybe not..ain't gonna make that call. Either way, the anger Talent has been displaying is not justified. I believe a real community should allow it's members to post their feelings and opinions freely without fear of retribution BUT only as long as it is done in a non-attacking manner and after that is done, if any needed decision still doesn't go the way of the "abused", that person should learn to accept it and go on, not through a tantrum and get violent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatty May 1, 2003 Share Fatty GC Founder May 1, 2003 Welp, since I'm in the business of making people mad, how about I put it all in a couple sentences: A while ago we had to tolerate idiots, because the community was small and we strove to have good games, and we all wanted to have people playing in our servers, and hanging out. So, the idiots were idiots and everyone lived with it. Now, however, the idiots are still idiots, but now they realize that they're being replaced by good people, which enrages them. Their complaining is met with an outstretched hand because frankly, even as the number of idiots increase, the number of quality players, clients, and friends increases even faster. Now the idiot is just plain tinkled off. If me saying that causes you grief, it just might be about you. I'm a very nice guy in real life, believe it or not, but who I am, or what I do, or what I say, or where I go does not govern the idiocy in others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceMcbanon May 1, 2003 Share AceMcbanon Member May 1, 2003 I would think gunman is mature enough to handle that argument. If it was in game I could understand that ban but he took it to aim. Pretty harsh, for something outside the game and not even insulting. But then again your server your choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConGregation May 1, 2003 Share ConGregation Member May 1, 2003 Yep. Some good points, DJ. But I have to agree with Fatty too. I have thought much about the negativity thing. Have even noticed it in me. We started a thread in our private forums just to address our role and make sure that we consciously try to keep ourselves positive. But is it our fault? Probably partly. Some of our hardline actions Im sure have bred this "anti-Mmmm" attitude. And Im sure if you were looking for it you can find one of our member giving a legitmate map change request a bad response. Heck you can find anything you want if you look for it. We are trying to foster a better attitude beginning with ourselves. We even discussed this issue concerning this ban. Will the end result (bitter regular, Huge topic, bad blood, perceived intentions) outway the real purpose (respect). In the end we decided that we were better off not letting this just go away. You may not agree. You may be right. But whether or not it works out for the best we felt it was necessary. I appreciate your comment, DJ and any criticism can be constructive. I would only echo Fat's thoughts about your judgement of Gunman. But in the end, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatty May 1, 2003 Share Fatty GC Founder May 1, 2003 Heck you can find anything you want if you look for it. THAT is some good stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
++SexyTyme++ May 1, 2003 Share ++SexyTyme++ Member May 1, 2003 I know, DJ, you see everything now as the "play elsewhere if you don't like it" translation.Thats all you keep saying and of course, it makes sense... to you... but isn't it the goal of the server admins to make clients happy? You can't honestly tell me that Talent walked into this with a request in mind. I don't need to be defensive, because part of what you say is true, the fact that we are sending a strict message to many clients that involves a choice on their part. Yes, the community has grown, and with that comes the very sour fact that we can afford to be honest with punk attitudes that more or less flame us, our decisions, etc. I can honestly tell you he did exactly that. Now everyone who has been around for awhile knows that talent and I aren't the best of buds. However, I know better than anyone that he is just that kind of person. He isn't the kindest but he is still a great person to play with. Now... you constantly address this "punk" attitude issue. Have you ever once looked at yourself? Have you realized how much of a punk you are to everyone else? How about your "witty" remarks to questions. Of course you can do it, because if we don't like it, we should just leave. No, I am not picking on just you because you think I have an "attitude" problem , I just have the guts to tell it to your face unlike all these others who say it behind your back. a continually unhappy client who feels it's his right to tell you how dumb some sort of change in the server is (an no, this isn't the first time Talent has shared this with his attitude).Talent is a community member who just wants to express his opinion, you said it yourself, that the people make the community. It is his right to express his opinion about your server to you. Why does he need to be banned permanently for this? Just for you to express how you will shut everyone up who has a problem with your server? You say you've been there DJ? So, in hindsight...I'd seriously love to hear how you would have responded to this. Gunman was passive the entire time, while Talent went for more and more. I don't know how Alex would have done it, but my response would have been yes. Mainly because you only have 5 people playing whereas 9 people downloading. Now, custom maps can be fun, but they are only fun if they are widespread like de_celtic, etc. Then again, it is your server and if we don't like it we can "go away" The problem is you don't hear from all the happy clients in here, nor in the whispers around other forums or in irc or in aim. You don't much hear about the people that pose questions and are answered. This is complete crap, and to somehow shift the blame around on us for being popular is a terrible way of justifying this.That sounds like punk attitude to me... Heck ya I defend Gunman, and I won't, not even for a second, try to decipher some sort of constructiveness out of Talent's words, because there isn't a bit in there. And thats a perfect example of your close mindedness... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rackish May 1, 2003 Share rackish Member May 1, 2003 I would just like to say: I like maybe 20% of the custom I play. FYI: I haven't played on trop for a decent amount of time for atleast a month... so I am going to stay neutral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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