god's omnipotence

[ich bin ein berliner]

im taking a class and we're trying to make sense of god, who he is, what he does, personality traits, whats his plan ect. if u guys want, i'll post what i've been learning in class and leave it open for you guys to discuss. so today we have:

 

om·nip·o·tent Audio pronunciation of "omnipotence" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-np-tnt)

adj.

 

1.) Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful.

 

thesis: god can do anything.

 

critisism: the hypothetical rock. "can god make a rock that he can't lift?"

 

its a catch 22:

if he CAN make a rock he cant lift - hes not all powerful, he can't lift it

if he CANT, make a rock he can't lift - hes not all powerful, he can't make it.

 

so heres the critisism. God can do anything that is logically possible.

list of things god can't do:

make a married batchelor

 

argh i cant find my notebook but you get the point. the 'rock' problem falls under this category also. presuppose that god is omnipotent, god can't make something that he CAN'T do. the illogical proposition of the rock, makes it null.

 

so you've been with me this long. whats to think about?

following the thesis, if God can do anything that is NOT illogical. chew on this for awhile:

 

God made the universe from nothing. (broken down, made something out of/from nothing)

 

so following my thesis, see if you can reconcile the problem (if its possible) gl hf

[MrDuke]

Interesting.

 

My first thought is that the criticism has 2 parts to it. Can He make the rock? Yes. Can He make it so that he cannot lift it? I would say no, not in the sense that He can't accomplish the task, but in the sense that He cannot limit a power He already has.

The closest thing I can write that relates to what I'm trying to say is: Can you declare that you cannot count over 10? I mean, with the exception of g00t, normal adults can count past 10. You could stop at 10, but you know you could continue and realistically, there's no way you could limit yourself to say, "nope, I have no clue what's past 10."

 

So my answer is that the initial criticism is flawed because it is a conflicting statement.

 

So I imagine your next statement is, can God create a conflicting scenario.

 

My answer would be that the conflicting scenario is beyond human comprehension, therefore a human cannot answer the question.

 

Nice dodge, eh?

 

Cool class...keep posting.

[Batman]

I dont think my brain can comprehend what God can and is capable of doing.. I dont think im supposed to know, not yet anyway..

 

But, i think (using my mortal brain) that God could just make another jesus (part of himself) and jesus2 will just be a little underpowered and couldnt lift the rock that God made..

[auggybendoggy]

so can God create people to a destination according to his will

 

or do we choose?

 

If indeed God cannot make a married bachelor then can he make a pre-destined free willing dude?

 

many people say he does make a free willed / predestined person.

I'm not sure about this.

 

Aug

[Fatty]

What is a married bachelor? Tell me what this is. If you can't, then what's the point of asking? It would have to be defined for us to even recognize it first.

 

How's this one? Can God make the broken whole? The sinner sinless?

 

Although to say we have to be able to comprehend it before God can do it is not necessarily true. For instance, God's love is something we can attempt to understand....but we haven't a clue.

 

I think Jesus did a wonderful job answering these questions...many times with a simple question back. If you believe in God and believe He is in control and has a plan, I doubt there's an immovable rock in the plan anywhere.....if it were necessary though, He'd do it.

 

Ooooh...chew on this.....

 

The human heart....(back to aug's questions). Could it be that, because we're allowed to choose, that a certain person's heart is a rock that God can't move? Naw...he could move it, but that would be cheating, it's not in his plan to force us to do anything. That's not love. Thus our choice.

[auggybendoggy]

i tend to favor fats position on plan.

 

making a rock you cannot life is not much planning.

 

If one is wise he'll never work against himself so for me to make a car I cannot use is pointless. I would never attempt it.

 

Aug

[gOOters]

Do you think he knows what Im about to say?

 

Glarbeldy gubbernsofels!

 

I didnt even know what I was about to say! I made it up!!

 

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 3.

[MrDuke]

Do you think he knows what Im about to say?

 

Glarbeldy gubbernsofels!

 

I didnt even know what I was about to say! I made it up!!

 

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 3.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I was hoping it wouldn't take too long for you to see it

[wayfarer]

Let me start by saying that I had no idea I was playing with fellow Christians, what a feeling that was! It made me feel so good inside I had to LOL.

Now more to the point. I've heard questions like this before ( can God do this and if so can He do that, than He can't be omnipotent etc. etc.)

Has no one read the book of Job? This book has so much depth. Basically Job did nothing wrong and was a good man in the Lord's eyes. Then satan, trying to show God up, gradually takes everything away from Job. To make a long story short, at the end Job asks why God has allowed this to happen? Then God comes before Job and says WHO ARE YOU? who judges what god does or does not do? I can not describe how powerful the ending of this book really is, but this I can say; If God were to take time out of his busy schedule to come down, in all his omnipotence,

in front of you, would you be asking him if he can make a rock so heavy he can't lift it? After you clean your pants of course!! He is God nothing, however impossible, is impossible with the Lord!! I guess it takes faith to see this. The best

response to questions like that is no response at all. Have you heard God's answer to your question? ... if only I could learn his lesson here. P.K.

[dwEEziL]

I took a class once at school (bible college) and the teacher made a comment that God can't like. He said "God would never say the moon is made out of green cheese because it's not". I raised my hand and comment on this. I said that I don't think it was like that. God is unable to lie, not because He is restricted to only speaking the truth, but rather, His word is truth so whatever He happens to say, becomes truth. So, if God says "The moon is made out of green cheese" then *poof*, the moon IS made out of green cheese.

 

He liked that comment so much, I heard him use it 4 or 5 other times before before I graduated.

[cobaltgrc]

it is illogical to try to make sense of god.

[Unclean]

"can god make a rock that he can't lift?" 

 

its a catch 22: 

if he CAN make a rock he cant lift - hes not all powerful, he can't lift it

if he CANT, make a rock he can't lift - hes not all powerful, he can't make it.

If anyone's interested, there's another (slightly different) perspective on this. The question listed above isn't logical, and doesn't have an answer. One might as well ask the question "what is the taste of Thursday?" In other words, just because something is in question-form doesn't mean it has an answer.

 

You may be thinking, "why isn't the question quoted above logical?" Simple -- it violates the law of non-contradiction. Any given concept can't be both "X" and "not X" at the same time. If something is "too heavy to lift" and "not too heavy to lift" at the same time, then the phrase "too heavy to lift" becomes meaningless, and invalidates the question.

[auggybendoggy]

unclean,

but doesnt Friday always taste better than thursday?

[*BiGBonES**]

If God were to take time out of his busy schedule to come down, in all his omnipotence,

in front of you, would you be asking him if he can make a rock so heavy he can't lift it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ich bin described omnipotence as a type of unlimited power. If God has unlimited power, then why's he so busy?

[Unclean]

unclean,

but doesnt Friday always taste better than thursday?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is this going to turn into a question game?

[Unclean]

Ich bin described omnipotence as a type of unlimited power. If God has unlimited power, then why's he so busy?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you asking a rhetorical question here? I'm not sure this could be answered... maybe God wants to be busy.

[*BiGBonES**]

Nice answer. But why would he create the world in 6/7 days, if he could create it 30 seconds?

 

Your probably answer 'Maybe he wanted to enjoy creating the world and wanted the feeling to last'.

 

But for every question I ask, there will always be an answer, which brings about the beauty of religion: there are always answers. Maybe this is because God actually does exist, or maybe its because the discription of Gods nature means that he can do anything as he pleases, so there will always be an answer. Maybe I need to move to the religous debate forum.

 

At the moment, I'm not religious or athiest, but bored. Why should I ask myself questions about the existance of God when there is always an answer? Why should I doubt the existance of God when there is also no proof of that he doesn't exist?

 

I'm not trying to stir up a debate, I'm just confused, and as there are no clear answers I find myself trapped in the middle

 

Yet some of my religous friends, that I truely admire, tell me to have faith. For me, faith is defined as not questioning Gods decisions, but to let him get on with the the job. As I try to keep faith though, I just seem to fall back into my old views that faith is also part of the beauty of religion: If you can't find the answers, just keep faith.

Now here I would say that faith is just a beautiful way for people the Church the prevent people from doubting Gods abilities when there are no logical reasons.

 

My final question, is if God creates us and gives a path to follow in life, then why does he create some of us to not believe in him? I first asked myself a question like this when Muslim extremists believed that Allah had given them a goal in life, to prevent western domination. If Allah wanted to prevent western domination, why wouldn't he intervene himself? Or is this just a useless excuse for Terrorism?

 

I'v waffled on a bit too much, but if anyone has any guidance, then I would appreciate it.

 

Thanks, bb

Edited May 20, 2005 by *BiGBonES**

[Unclean]

You've said a lot there, BB. I'd like to respond to it, so I'll create a new post in the debate forum. It'll have to wait until after my 10:00 meeting though, so be patient.

[Unclean]

Link:

http://www.gamrs.co/forums/in...showtopic=18201

[TheGeek]

If God were to take time out of his busy schedule to come down, in all his omnipotence,

in front of you, would you be asking him if he can make a rock so heavy he can't lift it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ich bin described omnipotence as a type of unlimited power. If God has unlimited power, then why's he so busy?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

God is never busy. He said to live by faith not by works. So if you ask God to lift a bolder your testing God. The devil tryed to test Jesus and Jesus said "do not test the Lord your God". So by you asking God to lift a bolder chances are that your testing him. You should live by FAITH. Not just saying i believe in this God because he moved this bolder

Edited January 23, 2006 by {GpL}TheGeek998

[discom]

Trying to figure some of this stuff out is phyically impossible for the human brain.

Prolly the best example is that God has always been here for an eternity. The human brain just cannot grasp that concept even though it's possible.

[Unclean]

Trying to figure some of this stuff out is phyically impossible for the human brain.

Prolly the best example is that God has always been here for an eternity. The human brain just cannot grasp that concept even though it's possible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've heard this explanation before, and it seems reasonable at first. But then two questions come to mind:

 

1. if we 'couldn't possibly' grasp some of these concepts, how do we know we're even doing the right thing with our religious beliefs?

2. how do we know we're not just creating things in our minds that can't be refuted?