West

[aMnesiac]

So poke said west will be a gun game server permanently? Is this true? If so, was that up for discussion and did I miss something? I've been inactive lately due to some personal matters and I surprised to see what happened. Did this have something to do with the low traffic on west lately?

[alvin]

Hmm.. Sorry, I forgot to make an official announcement. The server is still in the test stage though and Gungame might not be permanent. There was/is a discussion on this going on in the Lead Admin forum. And.. probably the Board Members forums as well but I'm not allowed in there.

Yup, this has everything to do with low traffic. In this thread.. http://www.gamrs.co/forums/in...showtopic=31969

Fatty says:

We're concerned about the server's future, but there's no reason to fight something that may be inevitable. Very soon you may see some major changes in the server theme / settings, and ultimately it may go away if nobody supports it. It's no fun to continually try to make something of something that's not working (e.g. Dallas, if anyone remembers).

This change is what Fatty was referring to. And so.. For now West is a GunGame DeathMatch server. I don't rememer the Dallas server.. I remember us trying to start a Seattle one and that failed. I also remember the ScoutzKnivez and Zombie server that we tried to start but failed. And we've been trying to get West back on it's feet but all the minor tweaks we've tried haven't improved traffic at all. So!!! We're trying a BIG change.

[shaftiel]

Gun Game is fun for about half an hour to an hour. After that it gets boring...

 

I would hate to see West go this route permenently, because I would end up playing on Retro much much more. Its selfish of me I know, but I'm not going to grit my teeth and suffer through playing gun game for hours on end to save Immutable. I payed my money, and will continue to do so because I love this community and the people in it. But I do not have fun playing Gun Game, so I will not be playing on Immut very much until it changes.

 

If it works and you get lots of traffic great! Hopefully we can convert some of them and get a large GG contingent of GC'ers. If this change is best for GC then great, full speed ahead!! But its not best for me heh .

 

 

 

 

Shaftiel

[stutters]

thanks for the input, shaftiel

 

unfortunately, people like you (sharing of opinion) are on the decline, and we're having a hard time maintaining a traffic minimum (>12 people during "prime times"), much less the impressive history of traffic we had in the past.n n fwiw, at one point, immutable was the top ranked server in the us for it's slot size. those days are behind us, and in reality, it's hard to pinpoint exactly why. without people sharing their input, it's even hard to make the necessary adjustments. it seems the only concrete stats we've had are 1) the west reg ship jumping and 2) the objective decline in server rank and traffic. i've tried on many occasions to get input from the west crowd, and it's fallen on mostly deaf ears.

 

in my opinion, the largest single factor is having someone in game, setting the mood. create a good atmosphere, and the rest will follow. after all, immutable alone is just a box of hardware sitting somewhere with no personality. we bring that, and without us, what's the appeal?

 

loki has consistently been engaging west, and stimulating traffic on AIM LAB. the traffic is actually exceeding its capacity, so it only seems natural to let him continue doing what he was doing there on a more powerful box (immutable). loki is capable of driving traffic in game by creating a fun environment, and that's the biggest factor.

 

atm, this isn't a dollars and sense issue. it's a matter of most effectively allocating our resources. as you've said, any many others have acted, playing with a slightly higher than preferred ping (on retro) isn't that big of a concern. before there was a gc west, i was doing the same thing. i lived in the bay area, played in chicago, and went there for the atmosphere more than the ping.

 

there isn't a demand for the type of server we've been providing (evidenced by the decline in traffic). forcing it to work doesn't make sense, so instead, we're trying to capture some of the demand in an area gc isn't dominating. again, this was the initial case with west when it opened, and now it's evolving again.

 

so where was the discussion? there really wasn't any, but as always, things are open for discussion. things are never set in stone, and we're all stakeholders in this. if you have input, please please please provide it. in your case...what about gungame bores you? would it be more enjoyable if it we're on death match mode, and it was stock css on stock maps with the gun leveling? we could do that, or we could schedule days for it.

 

-sj

[shaftiel]

I agree that Loki is, and has, done a great job. Since there was very little if any discusion about this change in the forums that I have access to, I just wanted to get my take on it out there.

 

I have tried to support Immutable as best I can, but I admit that I was one of the people that would choose to play on Retro instead of jumping on west and hanging with the bots. After the talk about Immutables future last week, I have been much more apt to try and start West up. I have been successful everytime I tried, which was kinda shocking to me heh . After about 5 - 10 minutes Immutable would go from 3 bots and me, to about 12 - 15 players. Still not a full server I know, but much better than 3 bots and me.

 

Like I said, if this is the best move for Immutable and GC, then I'm all for it. I'm just not going to be able to play on Immutable for more than an hour or so at a time heh.

 

 

 

Shaftiel

 

 

Ok, you modified your post while I was typing.. fiend.

 

 

Gun game get boring for me because there is very little to it. Perhaps I'm playing it wrong, but I don't see much chance for team work or strategies. I like those qualities in CSS, and they seem to be missing in Gun Game.

Edited March 2, 2007 by shaftiel

[stutters]

hey shaftiel,

 

thanks again for the input. i hope you hang with us while we make some tweaks. also, i was making a couple edits while you were typing your response. can you address the option of alternate gungame settings? i'm moving this out into general gc css land for more eyes, and hopefully, ideas.

 

sj

[shaftiel]

I don't know if this is possible...

 

 

If we could combine team play and Gun Game. Regular Gun Game, no deathmatch, objectives are the same as CSS, either bomb the target or rescue hostages.

 

So the only way get get a better gun is by killing one opponent, or the whole team gets upgraded by completeing the objective. On de maps T's need to have the bomb go off, CT's need to kill all of the T's and/or defuse the bomb. On cs maps T's need to kill all of the CT's, and the CT's need to rescue the hosties and/or kill all of the T's. At least that would help maintain the team structure, and motivate the teams to complete the objectives.

 

That would make Gun Game interesting for me. But like I said, don't know if thats possible.

 

 

 

 

Shaftiel

Edited March 2, 2007 by shaftiel

[stutters]

it's entirely possible to have gungame + objectives-based css. but as far as i know, only the T who plants the bomb gets a level up, not the entire team. but still, it could be stock maps with objectives. i'll look into it more, though.

[aMnesiac]

One of the reasons why I paid for membership and eventually became an admin was because of the atmosphere in a stock cs:s environment. I understand that traffic has been low lately but I think a lot of people joined for the same reason. I haven't been involved lately but I agree with shaft 100%, gun game IS fun but I really enjoy stock cs:s a lot more.

 

EDIT: This is not a threat from me and I don't want this to be taken the wrong way but I think things like west going to gun game would greatly influence the vote of renewals. You may want to do another vote for renewals with west being gun game and not stock.

 

EDIT 2: It was fun getting shot a lot by you last night poke... heh, good times.

Edited March 2, 2007 by aMnesiac

[Fatty]

traffic decline has been observed for a couple months now, with no evidence of any attempts by GC admins or members to rectify it (save for late by a few).

 

It is understood that many membership were created through Immut, and that is a painful truth that hits home with SJ more than anyone else. However, the fact of the matter is, over the past two months, the decline in server rank, activity, and overall success has been VERY evident.

 

I disagree that changing Immut is going to cause very many nonrenewals, because we're changing an empty server. The best conclusion is that the nonrenewals were coming anyways from those out west as evidence by a mass exodus. This is understood and accepted. Loki will have a couple months driving Immut, and then another step/decision will be made, most likely to either continue as is or kill the server altogether.

 

I'll quote myself from our discussion in LACC:

 

Has the traffic declined to a point we're very concerned? Yes

Running on its own, will it recover? No

Have we tried minor tweaks to recover? Yes

Have we attempted to find out the reasoning behind the decline? Yes

Have we observed / done the above for a month or more? Yes

Are we spending GC money on this? Yes

 

Time to change / rearrange. And guess what? To gc member from the west says "Hey, whoa, where's/what's the server? I paid for a reserve! I paid for admin!" we simply have a topic that has the above rationale listed in black and white.

 

Either give the server a sex change immediately or break up.

[aMnesiac]

That's fine by me, you guys put in all the hard work and I know leading can be trying at times. I am curious if traffic does increase and stabilize, would the LAs be open to a change back to a stock environment?

Edited March 3, 2007 by aMnesiac

[stutters]

I am curious if traffic does increase and stabilize, would the LAs be open to a change back to a stock environment?

the reason for the increase and stability would have to be evaluated before saying yes or no.

[shaftiel]

Fair enough. Like I said, while its not the best decision for me, if its whats best for GC, then I'm behind it 97% (3% selfish indignation heh ).

 

Out of, lets say 100 for easy math, people who just 8 - 12 months ago I saw regularly on West, now I see 7, maybe 10. No, 10 is to generous. As with all of you, I do not know if there is any one particular answer as to why this is. Perhaps it is just a normal cycle of ebb and flow that occures with any game. Newer games come out and capture the imagination and time from the older ones.

 

To be honest, I play more for the community experience and team play now than for the game itself. Perhaps thats why I don't find Gun Game very exciting, its just a race to see who gets to the end with no regard for your fellow team mates. For me that gets old real fast.

 

I appreciate everyones work and thought that has gone into trying to save Immutable. I know that I'm relativly new here, and that quite a few of you have put much more of yourself into Immutable than I. So I know that you will do what you need to do, and if that means shutting down Immutable, it will be a much harder decision for some of you than most would think.

 

 

 

 

Shaftiel

[alvin]

Added 4 Stock map to run in GG settings no DM.

[alvin]

Well.. I'll test GunGame for a week or two.. Then i'll try some Zombie.. If all that doesn't work I'll consider stock if we have enough support for it (will be watching for complaints in forums).

Honestly, I want to make a mod but I am not that smart. If I was.. Here's how the mod would go (It's basically a combination of zombie and gungame).

The mod would be named Extraction Point because that is your objective. CT's spawn randomly scatted throughout a map and with random guns. You could end up with just a knife or an awp.. Anything in between. Work together and get to the extraction point and stay there till the timer runs out. Of course the other team will know where your goal is, that just makes it more interesting. So really, a lot could happen between spawning and the end. As for what the T's would look like.. I'm not sure yet. I thought Zombie would be a good idea but that's so limited. Maybe just humans vs humans? I thought aliens like in NS would rock.. Like say if your extraction point was a roof.. They could climb up the side of the building and assault you at the very end if they wanted to.

Anyways, this is just another one of Poke's crazy fantasies.

[DNA]

Okay so I am sooooo messed in the head... I had no idea this was going with west and have be playing on Retro a lot cause it is easy to kill those Mmmmmm guys..;-)

 

But, I DNA swear the next 2-3 weeks to playing on west in hopes of regain what once was. I will hope that many of my brother will join me....

 

DNA out......................................

[stutters]

Well.. I'll test GunGame for a week or two.. Then i'll try some Zombie.. If all that doesn't work I'll consider stock if we have enough support for it (will be watching for complaints in forums).

keep in mind, these things usually take some time to start having an impact...especially since we have no redirect traffic. even with redirects, in the long long ago, it took west about a month to gain any momentum. don't burn yourself out trying too many new things...

[Nick Soapdish]

i dont see much point in having GG night if west is GG all the time. I still stick with my conviction that we need a purely stock server at all times.

[stutters]

 

stock wasn't bringing in traffic out west. if there was traffic, we wouldn't be here.

[Fatty]

Guys, you're a packet late and $801 short. Anyone that had any interest in West needed to notice that for the last three months, West has been headed downhile.

 

Back on February 7th, nearly a month ago, SJ was discouraged by the traffic. He had been trying and trying and nothing was working. He's obvoiusly time-committed to things beyond the GC world, and we found a solution: the only obvious person in the west who had the the time and desire to take off with something. Be supportive of Loki. He's been working in the AIM LAB for a long while......more or less alone.

 

The time is not now to help recover the server. The time was over the last two months. It's ok, it really is. It's just a path that we need to take.

 

If the GunGame server doesn't do well, then we'll take another look

 

Retro has been doing better and better. Rank has been getting better and better. Traffic is climbing. Now is not the time to start backing people out of Retro. Always in GC efforts toward one server have impacted another, but when we changed Retro, Immut was already headed down for the count.

 

The count has hit a virtual 10 and we've made a change.

 

Nick, that could possibly be true, but not necessarily for sure. I could understand that if the two were in the same location.

 

Again, this is happening, it's no proposal. I think there was a ball dropped somewhere in conveying this final decision in a clear and concise way somewhere here, and I will apologize on the administration's behalf for that. It's another Chapter in the GC Saga, which is nowhere near the end.

[dEL]

I personally think if you want traffic you would make West an all custom map or atleast have a lot of custom maps. Recrudensce to me as well seems much more of a server I rather play than the west now. Some of the stock maps have been around like 8 years. There are numerous custom map only servers out there that get a lot of traffic. A player can find thousands of servers that play dust2, italy, aztec etc. They cannot find as many servers that play custom maps.

 

I would like to see a gc server like these guys 66.150.164.210:27015 AHP, there like a pub clan or community similar to ours i think, all custom maps, and its pretty clean, not as clean of a server as ours but still relatively clean. The map line up is very nice, a lot of customs I have never seen or played before. At night this server is packed too and decent numbers in the day.

 

GG is fun for a little bit but I also agree it gets old after a little bit.

 

Theres my 2 cents.

 

dEL

[aMnesiac]

I also think part of the problem was/is that the admins weren't there all the time to support west. I know I fell off due to playing wow again for a bit, going back to the gym, etc. As much as I'd like to say it was stock that did it, I know people like myself had a part in it. I'd like to say that I wish there had been some sort of announcement about this change but I don't really know how much that would have affected the outcome of this decision.

 

I think most people just want to be communicated to that decisions are going to be made and have input on them before they are finalized. I support poke and the decisions that have been made by everyone, but that may not mean that I agree with them. The thing is people may not agree with west not being stock because we really like playing in that environment. As you can see from people still coming up with solutions after the decision has been made, people won't give up or lose the feeling of wanting to have west like it used to be. I think this is totally acceptable as long as we all support things moving forward. I just wanted to make that point, I know that gc has been around way before I joined and it will continue to do so and I know that you all have dealt with this before. I'm just trying to explain why some of us feel the way we do. Looking ahead... here's to having fun in a new environment.

[Fatty]

An all custom map server is a good idea. But at this point, we're basically starting at square one. Loki gets a shot at things first. After that, we'll see what happens.

 

Anything can work with the right amount of support from within.

[Fatty]

I would like to see a gc server like these guys 66.150.164.210:27015 AHP, there like a pub clan or community similar to ours i think, all custom maps, and its pretty clean, not as clean of a server as ours but still relatively clean.

 

It's easier to run something with 32 players. Many that just like to kill are drawn to the large servers. We could do something like that if I knew we had the funding (if I knew all current GC were renewing, it would be easy to forcast). If GG doesn't take, we can look at that option.

[alvin]

Desh: gungame with 3 people sucks. So i will be back when its "stock"

 

This is why I picked Gungame over Zombie. The lack of support on the west coast just would not work in combination with zombie mod.

 

Anyways, here's the report so far.

1) We haven't completely filled the server at all.

2) The server has been more active.

3) We are getting a lot of visiters.

4) Most gc/regulars on at one time was maybe 3 (excluding me).

5) One perma ban so far.

6) People are lagging. I don't know since i don't lag on west.. But they're saying it's laggy for them.

7) We may possibly have a couple of new regulars. (May need more GC advertisement though. Don't think they realize GC exists other than the server)

8) I am really tired from running around in the server killing everyone.

9) I miss stock now.. I had aimlab to run away to when people complained so much. Now it's gone.

10) The daily average traffic went from between 3-2 players a day to 5-4 players a day. Before i posted this .. the daily average was 1-0. So i'm pleased to say we're making progress. Although we haven't peaked.. We have gotten more traffic throughout the day than before. Before we filled the server for maybe 2-3 hours but throughout the rest of the day.. It was dead. So we're making progress.

 

Edit:

This week i'm working till midnight on.. Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday. Aside from that, school at 7 am. So.. If anybody could spend some time on the server those days i'd really appreciate it. I'll be on everyday other than those. Probably spec and chat it up while i do some homework. I'm 3-4 weeks behind in my college Courses, got dropped from Trig. So yeah. Any help would be appreciated. I'm up for suggestions as well.. Comments, bug reports. Whatever.