Hacking: An Ethics Discussion

[Clueless]

Okay, so to answer the original question, no....I still think its a bad idea, kinda like putting small kids in glasses....their eyes use them as a crutch and never grow stronger.....so I fail to see how an aimbot would help build skill.

 

And the most important thing we all need to see here is that its MRDUKES BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!!!!! BUMP THAT OLD FART'S THREAD !!!!!

[alvin]

Cheating at all won't make you become a good player. It just makes you dependent on cheats. You can have an anti-recoil hack and spray all day and pwn, but once you take it off... You're almost useless. Know what i mean?

Handicaps will only cripple the player. The best way for someone to get better is by being pushed to the limit. Like a good player vs a decent player. The decent player will improve at a quicker rate than the good player because he's being pushed. The good player will get better still but not as quickly. It's like a matter of experience, talent, and dedication.

Personally, if i knew i was playing against a cheater, i would stop. I wouldn't stoop down to their level just to compete on level grounds with them. I don't even use scrips because i think they're an unfair advantage, yet legal for cal,twl,cevo, and pubbing. I just play on regular default settings because i think its best. Then if i lose i know its because i need to get better, not because i need better scripts or hacks.

Conclusion, hacking is bad! Players with real skill don't use hacks, scripts, or modify their game in any advantagest way!

 

I suppose there needs to be a few more NOOB-friendly servers out there, where it is moderated and competition and bad-mouthing are a little less acerbic.

gcftw! We can pride ourselfs with the knowledge of knowing that we are one of those servers.

[Unclean]

Whoa - some people really took this thread in the wrong direction. Yes, ash- is a former hacker, but not now. Why come down on him now for mistakes in the past?

 

Getting back on topic, I'm hearing three common themes. Let me know if I missed one.

 

Theme 1: "hacking is bad, mmkay?" I agree, only when it creates an unfair advantage. But if it levels the playing ground (i.e. handicap with an aimbot), then how is it bad?

 

Theme 2: "if someone constantly uses hacks, then they never get any better". I fully agree with this one. This isn't necessarily a downside if the player doesn't WANT to get better, though. Why do they need to? If they're having fun, and you're having fun with more of a challenge, what's the problem there?

 

Theme 3: "hacking ruins/corrupts the game". I'd like to hear more about this one. How is the game ruined? Or how is it corrupted? Because it alters the playing ground a little?

 

 

There's one I thought of just a moment ago, too. Let's say, hypothetically speaking, that letting people use aimbots responsibly starts happening. Every game is a close one. Every game is a huge challenge, and every victory/loss is hardfought. This takes away the satisfaction of just stomping over the competition. Last night I was on a UT server, and managed to take down 4 skilled opponents simultaneously. That would be impossible with an aimbot-augmented team, so I wouldn't be getting that sense of satisfaction from rarities like that. That'd be a bummer.

[Chief]

Why not just start a fantasy league and everyone drafts bots and each person gets 5 bots. Each of the 5 bots gets skill ranging from 1 - 5, with no bot having the same skill level. So all teams are balanced and the individuals ability to learn a map, practice strategy and work on team work is irrelevant.

 

I would be more in favor of making fun of good players that go T on Italy, CT on Aztec or Dust, or AWP when they are 20:3 or their team is winning in a big way. Imagine how miserable it would be to see 3 or 4 xt guys on CT on aztec in regular pub play. I think having them or some of them go to T is a better solution than letting some of the Ts use hacks or lite hacks.

 

Imagine a game of chess where once you were down by a certain number of pieces you could designate one or more pieces to also have Queen movements. Not much of a test.

 

+++++++

 

Hacking ruins or degrades the gaming experience because you weren't killed by someone better than you, you were killed by someone who cheated. Here's the Code of Conduct from my high school, and I very much believe in it:

 

My aim in life is to become the best person I can be. To this end I will strive always to develop my potential to its fullest – physically, intellectually, morally and spiritually;

to make wise choices, exercise self-discipline, and accept responsibility for my actions;

to treat others as I would have them treat me;

to fulfill the ideal of service to my fellow man;

to place duty before self;

to lead by example and take care of those I lead; and

to live by the Culver Honor Code:

I will not lie, cheat, or steal, and I will discourage others from such actions.

 

Hackers suxor

[Lunk]

Whoa - some people really took this thread in the wrong direction. Yes, ash- is a former hacker, but not now. Why come down on him now for mistakes in the past?

 

 

Theme 3: "hacking ruins/corrupts the game". I'd like to hear more about this one. How is the game ruined? Or how is it corrupted? Because it alters the playing ground a little?

Answering the second part first. It doesn't necessarily ruin the game. But what it does is run off the new folks who are trying to play the game for the first time. And if they see that it's so easy to cheat/hack they figure why bother. See Tek's response as to why he doesn't play CS.

 

Hacks = Instant Gratification. That's all people are interested in these days- Instant Gratification. And all so you can beat someone that took the time to learn how to play the game the proper way and took the time to develop the skills required to master the game.

 

As far as ash is concerned, if someone else had made the statements he made. I would've responded the same way. Makes no difference who the individual is/was to me. I will not applaud someone for wrong doing. Since when has it become acceptable to applaud someone for doing wrong? Yes it's commendable that he admitted it and doesn't do it anymore. At the same time he probably ruined the fun of many new folks.

 

So no it doesn't ruin the game in and of itself. It just chases off people.

 

Why not just start a fantasy league and everyone drafts bots and each person gets 5 bots. Each of the 5 bots gets skill ranging from 1 - 5, with no bot having the same skill level. So all teams are balanced and the individuals ability to learn a map, practice strategy and work on team work is irrelevant.

 

I would be more in favor of making fun of good players that go T on Italy, CT on Aztec or Dust, or AWP when they are 20:3 or their team is winning in a big way. Imagine how miserable it would be to see 3 or 4 xt guys on CT on aztec in regular pub play. I think having them or some of them go to T is a better solution than letting some of the Ts use hacks or lite hacks.

 

Imagine a game of chess where once you were down by a certain number of pieces you could designate one or more pieces to also have Queen movements. Not much of a test.

 

+++++++

 

Hacking ruins or degrades the gaming experience because you weren't killed by someone better than you, you were killed by someone who cheated. Here's the Code of Conduct from my high school, and I very much believe in it:

 

My aim in life is to become the best person I can be. To this end I will strive always to develop my potential to its fullest – physically, intellectually, morally and spiritually;

to make wise choices, exercise self-discipline, and accept responsibility for my actions;

to treat others as I would have them treat me;

to fulfill the ideal of service to my fellow man;

to place duty before self;

to lead by example and take care of those I lead; and

to live by the Culver Honor Code:

I will not lie, cheat, or steal, and I will discourage others from such actions.

 

Hackers suxor

So eloquent you are Chief. Love you posts.

[witt]

Hacking is wrong. If you don't like losing or can't handle getting stomped once in a while, play against bots where you can control the environment. CSS is the first computer game I've ever played, and when I started I was TERRIBLE (still not very good). But working on your shot and seeing improvement is gratifying.

I agree with Lunk, people who use hacks are just looking for instant gratification. They don't care about improving skills, they just want to post a good score. Like I said before, if all you care about is dominating by whatever means available, then stick to single-player games.

[akaM2]

Hack!!! Your all HACKERS!!!!

 

 

 

I dont mind if I play against hackers, gives me more of a challenge, and I know my hacks are better than theres

[Unclean]

I would be more in favor of making fun of good players that go T on Italy, CT on Aztec or Dust, or AWP when they are 20:3 or their team is winning in a big way. Imagine how miserable it would be to see 3 or 4 xt guys on CT on aztec in regular pub play. I think having them or some of them go to T is a better solution than letting some of the Ts use hacks or lite hacks.

*eyes glaze over* I'm not a CS guy. What's the problem with T on Italy? CT on Aztec? xt guys? Would you mind rephrasing this to be not so game-specific?

 

Imagine a game of chess where once you were down by a certain number of pieces you could designate one or more pieces to also have Queen movements. Not much of a test.

Agreed. But that would throw off the strategy of the other player, and hence disadvantage the better player. That's not what I'm talking about here.

 

About the Code of Conduct - I too think it's best to develop ourselves as much as possible. But not everyone thinks like you or I do. For those not interested in improving their skills, how would the hacks degrade their gaming experience? Or yours, for that matter? After all, they're not cheating if hacks are allowed.

 

Answering the second part first. It doesn't necessarily ruin the game. But what it does is run off the new folks who are trying to play the game for the first time. And if they see that it's so easy to cheat/hack they figure why bother. See Tek's response as to why he doesn't play CS.

...

So no it doesn't ruin the game in and of itself. It just chases off people.

Good point. From a marketing standpoint, new players = new blood. If that's cut off, and veterans move on to other games, then the online population dwindles. Or more importantly, a dependency on aimbots means those new players can't play games not enhanced by aimbots, since their skill was never really improved. So we never see any new natural talent emerge.

 

The question here is 'how could we level that playing ground without scaring off the new players?' Perhaps the option to turn the watered-down aimbots on or off at will. Want a close game? Turn it on. Want to improve your skills? Turn it off.

[Lunk]

To be honest you'll never completely level the playing field. There will always be someone out there with a new enhancement/tweak that will give them the edge.

 

Which is sad in a way. Instead of using their talents for the advancement/betterment of society they would rather use it to cause discontent. And not just in the gaming world.

[Chief]

I'm talking general pub play. That's just regular playing on a public server, not a match with 5-5 for 15 rounds then switching sides. In general pub play, T on Italy is a little too rediculously easy if you are a strong player against average joes. Same is true of CT on Aztec. On both maps, one side is spawned at or closer to the hot zones/choke points/mission. A choke point is something like a door or corridor, not related to network connection choke. Choke points exist in real life, on the freeway they are bottlenecks where many people come together. For example, the DD on Aztec is a choke point. Everyone has to funnel through that door creating congestion, and a good player can control the DD and still be effective on covering the ramps out of the water and hear what's happening in the bridge room.

 

xt guys are a team competing in higher divisions of CAL. They're all pretty good and practice and work well together. Get two of them on CT with 3 nubs going against however many Ts and they can control CT on aztec and prolly end the map with a 20-6 ratio even if they are outnumbered.

 

Same is true of T on Italy, where they can snipe from the windows of the apartment, through rails and generally control the map in pub play.

 

+++

 

As for the chess scenario...how is it not disadvantaging the better player? He's no longer playing against a person, he's playing against digital enhancements. If the outcome is altered by an outside influence against that player, he is disadvantaged. Looking at it from the perspective of the lesser player is the flaw that makes socialism an academic ideal that cannot exist in practice.

[akaM2]

chief is sexy kinda

[3vil]

i hope this find the right place i mean for it.i do not and will not ever cheat any kind of way on an online type of game.that being said,i feel if you need to "hack",then you should stick to non-online games.i applaud ash for saying he use to cheat,it takes a lot to "come clean" in this kind of environment.the sad part is now some people will now suspect him of hax's even if he's not.

 

the question should be "what is the point of cheating?will it help or hinder the cheater?"if i have already beaten a game on x-box,ps2 or pc,(non-online games),i download cheats to have fun,i.e.=how fast i can clear a level,how many hits it takes to kill the boss,stuff like that.i do not consider it cheating to have fun as long as you are not getting an edge over other players,that is outrageously wrong,no matter how you decide to pretty it up.

 

the reason i joined g.c.,was the atmosphere of the players,admins,and the general play of the servers.i most definitely enjoy vac,so everyone is even no matter if you are a noob or a seasoned vet.i believe if you want to get better you have to play and learn,not let some program learn for you.

[Wentz]

Sometimes I wish I had an aimbot IRL like when I'm at Walmart waiting in line for like 27 minutes to buy a freakin toothbrush. DIE LOSERS HTP!

Edited July 25, 2006 by Wentz

[JackieChan]

Ash rose a pretty good point. It is true. This other community I was in before (which doesn't exist anymore), there was one person who liked CS (1.6, not source) just as much as I did. So, we got together and played a little 1v1. He even told me that (since I wasn't as good as he was) if I played a person better than I was, I'd greatly improve. But that was a while ago and that was 1.6.

[Guest ash-]

Whoa - some people really took this thread in the wrong direction. Yes, ash- is a former hacker, but not now. Why come down on him now for mistakes in the past?

 

Getting back on topic, I'm hearing three common themes. Let me know if I missed one.

 

Theme 1: "hacking is bad, mmkay?" I agree, only when it creates an unfair advantage. But if it levels the playing ground (i.e. handicap with an aimbot), then how is it bad?

 

Theme 2: "if someone constantly uses hacks, then they never get any better". I fully agree with this one. This isn't necessarily a downside if the player doesn't WANT to get better, though. Why do they need to? If they're having fun, and you're having fun with more of a challenge, what's the problem there?

 

Theme 3: "hacking ruins/corrupts the game". I'd like to hear more about this one. How is the game ruined? Or how is it corrupted? Because it alters the playing ground a little?

 

 

There's one I thought of just a moment ago, too. Let's say, hypothetically speaking, that letting people use aimbots responsibly starts happening. Every game is a close one. Every game is a huge challenge, and every victory/loss is hardfought. This takes away the satisfaction of just stomping over the competition. Last night I was on a UT server, and managed to take down 4 skilled opponents simultaneously. That would be impossible with an aimbot-augmented team, so I wouldn't be getting that sense of satisfaction from rarities like that. That'd be a bummer.

 

How can using cheats not make one get any better at a game? You had to put on training wheels at some point before you could ride a bike no? GTA:SA is a TOUGH game. I don't know anyone who has not cheated in that game. I'm almost towards the end of the game and I have been using the money and gun cheats. Now that I have played the game for so long and know the missions, controls, and gameplay I feel that I can go through it again without cheats (training wheels). Why should this concept be any different for online games? When you play a game with cheats you are still accumulating time and experience in that game.

 

You yell "hack", and everyone gives you every reason ever typed for why it's bad instead of discussing how it can level the playing field if everyone had a legal aimbot handicap. My opinion is that an aimbot handicap does not level the playing field. Why? Because the good players still have years of accumulated reflexes and tactics. Aiming assistance will only make the good players even better as they can find ways to use their newfound powers it to their advantage while the newbies are still trying to learn the game. Good players will ALWAYS trump newbies.

 

If you have played any decent console shooter lately with autoaim then you probably know someone that can dominate you even though the playing field is supposedly even. The low sensitivity aimbot that you are talking about would not make a difference in leveling the playing field because the vets still have obscene reflexes -- which newbies cannot match -- that would effectively double their lethality with any kind of aiming assistance.

 

The real problem in all games is the fact that someone always has an advantage. The advantages can be skills, cheats, hardware, teamwork or all of the above. So then the question becomes: how do you balance the game so that everyone is on an even playing field? A few possible solutions would be: balance the teams so that skillful players are pit against each other, create anti cheat protection, server verified standard hardware settings that everyone must run, handicap the good players with less health or weaker weapons, and perhaps a matching service like Xbox live that only allows like-skilled players to play at the same server.

 

Alot of this stuff has already been done. Unfortunately, none of them have done anything to solve the problem. I bet that Xbox live has vets running around on newbie accounts just so they can destroy people. The best way to even the playing field would be to gimp the good players so that they cannot walk all over the competition. You could make a handicap menu (like the handicap healthbars in Street Fighter before you start a match) that allows you to lower the damage your weapons make or worsen your recoil. This would be voluntary though. I really doubt that good players would give other players an advantage in such a way because good players can be every bit as much of a jerk as a cheater.

 

Another thing that no one has mentioned is that a handicap system already exists in CS. A newbie can spray and pray and with luck they will get a headshot. Valve tried to level the playing field by introducing randomness in the recoil, but good players can still exploit and use this randomness to their advantage as they still have better reflexes than newbies.

 

Is it possible to level the playing field for newbies? Not with handicap systems that affect every player because vets will always be able to use every quirk of the game to their advantage. Other methods may work, but we will never see them in CS, and I doubt that we will ever see them in PC gaming period.

 

Ash rose a pretty good point. It is true. This other community I was in before (which doesn't exist anymore), there was one person who liked CS (1.6, not source) just as much as I did. So, we got together and played a little 1v1. He even told me that (since I wasn't as good as he was) if I played a person better than I was, I'd greatly improve. But that was a while ago and that was 1.6.

 

The best way to improve in any FPS games is to go back to FPS roots, which is deathmatch. Play a couple rounds of CS:DM, Quake 3, etc and your reflexes will improve dramatically. Imo, reflexes are the most important skill to have in almost any game. I goto a couple CS:DM servers that are always populated with extremely good players. If you play there for a couple days you will come back feeling like a new player. I can pm the ip's if you want, dunno if it is allowed to even speak of other servers in here

Edited July 25, 2006 by ash-

[Chief]

Do they have better reflexes or more knowledge of the map and its "flow"?

[akaM2]

So because you havent practiced as much as I have and spent all the time i have playing this game, you should be even with me?

 

If I spent all the time in the world practicing to only be as good as a kid with (training) hacks, I wouldnt play the game.

[Guest ash-]

Do they have better reflexes or more knowledge of the map and its "flow"?

 

Both

 

 

So because you havent practiced as much as I have and spent all the time i have playing this game, you should be even with me?

 

If I spent all the time in the world practicing to only be as good as a kid with (training) hacks, I wouldnt play the game.

 

Why should only the obscenely good players be allowed to have all the fun though? Is it ethical for good players like you to dominate the competition? Imo, it all boils down to someone having an extreme advantage which makes it no better than cheating. If I spent all the time in the world being dominated by a team full of good players, I would quit the game too.

Edited July 25, 2006 by ash-

[akaM2]

Why should only the obscenely good players be allowed to have all the fun though? Is it ethical for good players like you to dominate the competition? Imo, it all boils down to someone having an extreme advantage which makes it no better than cheating. If I spent all the time in the world being dominated by a team full of good players, I would quit the game too.

 

The Obscenely good players are obscenely good because they practiced! Comparing people who practiced to get good to hackers is the funniest thing i have read yet in these forums.

 

I guess in your thinking I could walk onto an NFL field and be like, "guys im new but make me look like an all star and give me all the advantages you can so all of your hard work to be good at something goes down the drain."

 

In your thinking people who practice hard at something should not in anyway be better than the ones who dont. I guess someone should be able to be a CEO of a company and be a high school drop out just because we dont want the College grads to have all the fun.

 

 

And Yes it is completely ethical for good players to dominate the competition. We practice for a reason, to be good. If everything was meant to be even this wouldnt be called a competition.

[NOFX]

haha you guys have way to much interest in this

 

hacking in a game, no... think about it this way.

 

practically EVERY game is set to be fair..... there are a set of rules and EVERYONE has to follow those rules or else the game isn't what it is meant to be.

 

baseball.. No players get 5 strikes rather than three, no players can use steriods.

 

football.. No team gets 5 down rather than 4 just because they suck...

 

So to allow something like this widely, is NO.

 

Now if my bud and I are playing and he sucks, I don't care if he using an aimbot, or can see through walls.. Ill let him do it until I get blown out.

 

When I used to be good, I would always say if your using a wallhack, you must really suck, even with that advantage, your still not hurting my consistant 2:1, 2.5:1 ratio

[Guest ash-]

Why should only the obscenely good players be allowed to have all the fun though? Is it ethical for good players like you to dominate the competition? Imo, it all boils down to someone having an extreme advantage which makes it no better than cheating. If I spent all the time in the world being dominated by a team full of good players, I would quit the game too.

 

The Obscenely good players are obscenely good because they practiced! Comparing people who practiced to get good to hackers is the funniest thing i have read yet in these forums.

 

I guess in your thinking I could walk onto an NFL field and be like, "guys im new but make me look like an all star and give me all the advantages you can so all of your hard work to be good at something goes down the drain."

 

In your thinking people who practice hard at something should not in anyway be better than the ones who dont. I guess someone should be able to be a CEO of a company and be a high school drop out just because I dont want the College grads to have all the fun.

 

I'm not comparing good players to hackers, only newbies and good players, which means that you are really laughing at your own misinterpretation of my post. Your NFL analogy sucks. Why should Michael Jordon be allowed to go on random street courts to dominate the competition? If someone (particularly newbies) is having a casual and fun game, they don't want to have their fun sucked away by someone that is so good that they don't belong there. I don't know much about you M2, but I am assuming you are a CAL or CPL hotshot which would put you in a similiar situation as Michael Jordon.

 

You are wrong to extrapolate what I am thinking based on the few words that I write because you don't occupy the biological computer within my skull. I never said people that practice hard should not be better than anyone else nor do I think that. We are talking about video games, (and games in general) -- not companies -- which, in this context are meant to be fun. Competitive players don't necessarily play for casual fun like me or any random joe shmoe on the internet.

 

If someone is too dang good than they ought to play with evenly skilled competition, that's why leagues exist. If you have 40 and 3 on some random server and everyone else is struggling with 1:1 then you are merely using your years of accumulated practice as an unfair advantage against players who don't have an advantage. The game is fun for you because you are dominating but is everyone else enjoying the game as much as you? No.

Edited July 25, 2006 by ash-

[akaM2]

Well acording to Ash I can no longer pub, because anyone who gets over a 1:1 ratio is using an unfair advantadge against noobs.

 

And yes my NFL analogy sucked but NOFX's analogies ruled!

[stutters]

lol hotshot

 

<puts on Top Gun aviators, looks @ M2>

You're everyone's problem. That's because every time you go up in the air, you're unsafe. I don't like you because you're dangerous.

[akaM2]

Revvin' up your engine

Listen to her howlin' roar

Metal under tension

Beggin' you to touch and go

 

Highway to the Danger Zone

Ride into the Danger Zone

 

Headin' into twilight

Spreadin' out her wings tonight

She got you jumpin' off the track

And shovin' into overdrive

 

Highway to the Danger Zone

I'll take you

Right into the Danger Zone

 

You'll never say hello to you

Until you get it on the red line overload

You'll never know what you can do

Until you get it up as high as you can go

 

Out along the edges

Always where I burn to be

The further on the edge

The hotter the intensity

 

Highway to the Danger Zone

Gonna take you

Right into the Danger Zone

 

Highway to the Danger Zone

[Lunk]

 

This just keeps gettin' funnier and funnier.