Hacking: An Ethics Discussion

[Assassinator]

I must applaud you here ash, as this seems to be a rather enlightening post. It seems however, that cheating was so bad that the environment almost forced you to cheat to make any headway.

 

That such a condition existed or still exists is pretty depressing. Aren't there havens for less-skilled players?

[Guest ash-]

I must applaud you here ash, as this seems to be a rather enlightening post. It seems however, that cheating was so bad that the environment almost forced you to cheat to make any headway.

 

That such a condition existed or still exists is pretty depressing. Aren't there havens for less-skilled players?

 

I've been to newbie servers before but in my experience they only attract good players that want to beat up on newbies. There's a newbie server on 1.6 that boots players once their stats reach a certain level. I forgot the name of it but it's out there somewhere.

[Unclean]

Ok, lots of you have said lots of stuff, so I can't really respond to all of it. But here's what really jumped out at me.

 

MrDuke pointed out a great analogy - what I'm suggesting is very similar to a handicap in golf. I don't think the nubs that need a little help would be interested in their stats post-game, though.

 

Xterminator - GREAT quote, "i think that a good player must earn his skills rather than install them." Perhaps using some other tool than an aimbot to help them improve might be better, since presumably an aimbot wouldn't help their skills much (if at all). But wouldn't any "tool" still be considered a hack of some kind?

 

Chief's post cracked me up, too. He's always been good at finding a humorous way of looking at something without offending anyone. Except for Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, etc.

 

And ash-, that must have been hard to post. But thanks for posting it, because it brings up another good topic. I didn't intend for this to turn into a "confessions of a former hacker", but it's as Assassinator said - very enlightening. I for one would like to hear more about your thought process when you were hacking. Was there gratification? Did you boast? What did you do if someone accused you of hacking? Were you banned from servers? etc etc

 

Oh, and I thought I'd throw out one more 'disclaimer' (if it's not too late). I'm not contemplating becoming a cheater, nor have I ever in online games. Those on the UT side would know this very well - I take pride in having earned the skills I have and developing them further. I wouldn't have spent so much time helping the other UT GC folks learn how to become better if I didn't appreciate their talent either. Not saying anyone is or did accuse me, just throwing it out there.

[Chief]

[MrDuke]

<still has memory of Chief galiantly accepting his prize burned into his head>

/hijack

[Guest ash-]

And ash-, that must have been hard to post. But thanks for posting it, because it brings up another good topic. I didn't intend for this to turn into a "confessions of a former hacker", but it's as Assassinator said - very enlightening. I for one would like to hear more about your thought process when you were hacking. Was there gratification? Did you boast? What did you do if someone accused you of hacking? Were you banned from servers? etc etc

 

One thing that must be kept in mind is that games are meant to be fun. Cheats can make games even more entertaining as the game becomes very comedic when you pull off things that are obviously impossible like running at 100mph while getting all headshots. I never really boasted as I did not consider cheating to be worthy of boasting like real skill is. This is a distinction that I've alway had with single player games as there is a real sense of accomplishment when you beat a game without cheats. However, this was something that I could not accomplish in my early days of online gaming as the difficulty was extreme unlike any other game I have ever played.

 

I always cheated blatantly as I considered the low key cheaters with low sensitivity aimbots to be cowardly, moreso than I was for cheating at all. I made it a mission to hunt these players down and run them off of servers because strangely enough, I was a very skilled cheater. To put it bluntly, I was able to dominate regular players and other cheaters as well!

 

I was banned from time to time but I was usually lucky enough to be on when admins weren't. I used to use a trick where you could form barcode nicks with lowercase l's and uppercase I's that made it difficult for admins to boot you because the default CS font rendered them the same! It wasn't long until more people started using it and Valve changed the default font though.

 

Admittingly, I ruined many players games just to extract all of their entertainment for my own gratification. It was unfortunate that the circumstances led me to cheat but thankfully, VAC has put a huge dent in the cheating community and has done a great job at deterring people from cheating and losing their $50.

[Clueless]

I agree, using an aimbot as a handicap is still cheating, that would blur the line in the sand even more.

 

The only way to get good is to play and get killed alot....like me:)

[Lunk]

So ash the only reason you stopped was due to VAC then. Great ethics there. Ruin the game for alot of new folks to get some gratification for yourself. You say you don't like people who boast and insult newbies and yet you clearly did more damage by using cheats against them. Classic.

[Guest ash-]

So ash the only reason you stopped was due to VAC then. Great ethics there. Ruin the game for alot of new folks to get some gratification for yourself. You say you don't like people who boast and insult newbies and yet you clearly did more damage by using cheats against them. Classic.

 

I cheated because it was very common place at the time and I was also a total newbie. VAC came around and "fixed" the cheating problem while I also became a better player myself. What is so bad about quitting cheating because VAC came around and I risked losing access to a $30-50 game? In trying to insult me you unwittingly acknowledged VAC's success at curtailing the cheating epidemic. I never said what I did was ethical and there is no reason for me to please you. I can argue all day long about your severe lack of ethics in the way you administrate and treat other players in game but at the end of the day neither of us are ethical people in each others eyes, so why start the mudslinging again Lunk?

Edited July 24, 2006 by ash-

[Lunk]

So ash the only reason you stopped was due to VAC then. Great ethics there. Ruin the game for alot of new folks to get some gratification for yourself. You say you don't like people who boast and insult newbies and yet you clearly did more damage by using cheats against them. Classic.

 

I cheated because it was very common place at the time and I was also a total newbie. VAC came around and "fixed" the cheating problem while I also became a better player myself. What is so bad about quitting cheating because VAC came around and I risked losing access to a $30-50 game? In trying to insult me you unwittingly acknowledged VAC's success at curtailing the cheating epidemic. I never said what I did was ethical and there is no reason for me to please you. I can argue all day long about your severe lack of ethics in the way you administrate and treat other players in game but at the end of the day neither of us are ethical people in each others eyes, so why start the mudslinging again Lunk?

Just tellin' it how I see it. You brought it up. So I felt obliged to point out the holes in your story. Thanks for playin.

 

And by your own admission of telling your little story all can see what kind of ethics you hold.

[Wolfsblood]

Ok, maybe this isn't my place to point this out, but this ISN'T what this thread was created for. Might be a good time to stop the bickering.

 

Just my thoughts as a paying member.

[Guest ash-]

Ok, maybe this isn't my place to point this out, but this ISN'T what this thread was created for. Might be a good time to stop the bickering.

 

Just my thoughts as a paying member.

 

I agree, the personal insults made by Lunk were not necessary. If he had nothing nice to say then he should not have said anything at all.

Edited July 25, 2006 by ash-

[Primus]

WELL,WELL, WELL!!!! Now this hole thread is really very enlightning here. I have been playing UT for almost 2 years here now. I have NEVER used any hax EVER!!! I look at that stuff as a way for two bit punks to boost their stats. As for leveling the playing field, all it is doing is giving you a false sence of security. Because when you THINK your good enough to stop using them and you pop back into the servers to play and then get PWND, your original frustration returns 2 fold if not more. Which then you turn them back on and continue to be a punk.

 

There is an old saying that you all have heard before... YOUR ONLY AS GOOD AS YOUR COMPETION. If you truly want to get better, just play more, do you think your broken leg will get better if you keep using your crutches to walk with even after the cast comes off. I know a lot of you are saying---ya, this coming from a guy who really stinks, maybe, but i think some people here are forgetting that both CS and UT are TEAM games. those of you that play know that without teamwork you can be as good as M2 and still lose. I don't know about hax and all that stuff and don't want to know. I'll just keep playing in hopes that I'll get better. That way I can live with myself at night. Just my two cents, which may or may not be worth anything.

Edited July 25, 2006 by Primus

[Tristan]

Few people have the self control and self confidence to train themselves honestly using an aim-bot.

 

Most people will bump accuracy to 100% and watch as the server empties.

 

I do not agree that this is a good idea.

[farmerisme]

I started playing CS with source and let me tell you... I stunk. Horrible. I remember on recrud playing with about 7-10 CsLs guys before xT and it was tough. But I found a place to play (here) that not only was not cruel to people without skills, people would help you learn. Gotten better and I am glad that I never even thought about hacking, which I consider about as low and egotistical as anything out there. Ruins the fun for EVERYONE else in the server when someone resorts to it. Nothing fun about that, not to mention fair. IMO.

[shadow]

I STINK.....I DON'T HACK.....AND I'M PROUD OF IT.

[Lunk]

This is a thread about hacking and ethics. Clearly states that in the title.

 

I made no personal insult. Just pointed out the fact that he ruined the game for others and sees no wrong in that. And then goes on to justify his actions by stating everyone was doing it. Well if that's the case, if everyone were running and jumping off a bridge one could assume he would've done the same.

 

I made an observation about his story which he freely told. In the future if he doesn't want to see a differing opinion then I suggest he not post such things.

 

But forgive me I digress for talking about ethics in a thread titled Hacking: An Ethics Discussion.

 

BTW I played during the same time. And never once used a hack. I knew eventually I would get better. And I did. Maybe not the best but Im happy with my level of play.

[Wolfsblood]

Here's another take on "limited" hax.

 

What if it were used to help a "special needs" person? Say to help a person with Cerebral Palsey be able to play a game with other people? Would that be wrong? Chances are that they still wouldn't be able to dominate a game, but they certainly would stand a better chance of having fun if they weren't getting pwned constantly due to not having the physical coordination the rest of us take for granted.

 

Just a thought.

 

I don't know the answer since as any of you who play on the servers with me can tell, I don't use, and have never use hax. Yes, I really am that bad.

[Guest ash-]

This is a thread about hacking and ethics. Clearly states that in the title.

 

I made no personal insult. Just pointed out the fact that he ruined the game for others and sees no wrong in that. And then goes on to justify his actions by stating everyone was doing it. Well if that's the case, if everyone were running and jumping off a bridge one could assume he would've done the same.

 

I made an observation about his story which he freely told. In the future if he doesn't want to see a differing opinion then I suggest he not post such things.

 

But forgive me I digress for talking about ethics in a thread titled Hacking: An Ethics Discussion.

 

BTW I played during the same time. And never once used a hack. I knew eventually I would get better. And I did. Maybe not the best but Im happy with my level of play.

 

Sorry for derailing your thread Unclean, but I cannot take these personal attacks from Lunk.

 

I never said I saw "no wrong" in ruining other players games, you are pointing out facts that you made up and putting words in my mouth. I dislike cheaters as much as anyone else and I regret that I cheated. Your analogy between jumping off bridges and justifications for cheating is obtuse. The circumstances that led me to cheat which you choose to ignore in order to formulate your insults against me were not shared by you because you are not me and I am not you. AFAIK, you are old which means you should not be as susceptible to such actions. I was around 17 at the time I cheated and I was totally fed up with the game, the ackward keyboard controls, and all the cheaters.

 

With all that being said, you missed the whole point of the thread which was Uncleans post, not the thread title and my post. I have not seen you add anything interesting to the debate except sly insults towards someone who actually has insight into the questions that Unclean seeks. Comical ethics you have.

[Tek-Almighty]

i was reading what ash was saying up there...

 

interesting.

 

I suppose once you got good enough cheating, you would simply quit and then, having some skills and some idea of what is going on in the game, you would be better and like it more...??

 

Is that your rationale?

 

I don't know.

 

I wouldn't cheat at UT2K4, because from an ethics standpoint, I like honest competition and I like to test myself. Most of the time, I find out how much suckage I have achieved...

 

However, about 1 year ago, I started playing CSS every night...I had never played before, I played on all kinds of pub servers...

 

Simply stated, there was no room for noobs...I sucked, I didn't know how to buy weapons, I didn't know how to do the bomb thing, I didn't have good aim...so time after time, I got kicked or voted out b/c of sucking. That lasted 1 week and I never played CSS again. Looked fun, but the HC people just wouldn't give me a break or even teach me anything.

 

Long story short...that experience, if I weren't me, would have seriously made me think about hacking.

 

I suppose there needs to be a few more NOOB-friendly servers out there, where it is moderated and competition and bad-mouthing are a little less acerbic.

[Guest ash-]

i was reading what ash was saying up there...

 

interesting.

 

I suppose once you got good enough cheating, you would simply quit and then, having some skills and some idea of what is going on in the game, you would be better and like it more...??

 

Is that your rationale?

 

I don't know.

 

I wouldn't cheat at UT2K4, because from an ethics standpoint, I like honest competition and I like to test myself. Most of the time, I find out how much suckage I have achieved...

 

However, about 1 year ago, I started playing CSS every night...I had never played before, I played on all kinds of pub servers...

 

Simply stated, there was no room for noobs...I sucked, I didn't know how to buy weapons, I didn't know how to do the bomb thing, I didn't have good aim...so time after time, I got kicked or voted out b/c of sucking. That lasted 1 week and I never played CSS again. Looked fun, but the HC people just wouldn't give me a break or even teach me anything.

 

Long story short...that experience, if I weren't me, would have seriously made me think about hacking.

 

I suppose there needs to be a few more NOOB-friendly servers out there, where it is moderated and competition and bad-mouthing are a little less acerbic.

 

Cheating was both an enormous handicap for me and a way of fighting against other cheaters. I, like most other players like honest competition as well, unfortunately, online gaming and CS 1.1-3 in particular are and were filled with cheaters. Had Valve not introduced VAC then I feel that CS would have died as more and more people jumped ship and started cheating because there was no way to police it. If there is no honest competition then there is no reason for players to be honest; it's a viscious cycle.

 

A major problem in PC online games is the fact that other players are so good that it's difficult for newbies to get in the game and actually have fun. If you don't buy the game when it first comes out, then you are gonna have lots of problems adjusting and assimiliating all the tactics that people have perfected over time. This problem is compounded for people that are new to using the keyboard and mouse controls for FPS games and also because of the large amount of jerks online that like to badmouth other players. Xbox live's matching service eliminates this by pitting you against like-skilled players. I can not speak too highly of Xbox Live as I don't have an Xbox but I hear it is a great feature.

Edited July 25, 2006 by ash-

[Chief]

This isn't a personal attack, but it is a discussion about if we think it would be ethical to have some form of handicap-like system to level the FPS playing field. The term "hack" was used in the initial post. Regardless of what thread it was in, even if it was in some other thread, everyone should know that hacking or admitting past hacking is flame bait...it's just asking to have people condemn it.

 

Knowing this community, or even a quick look a the banned threads should let everyone know hacking is looked down actively. As in despised.

 

It sounds like Lunk and Ash have some history, but look at the responses...everyone looks down on hacking, Lunk just made the clearest statements about why it's looked down on.

 

That said, this is a discussion about the ethics of hacking and going back and forth is a hijack.

 

 

++++++++++++

And Tek, you should get on our teamspeak with Bat and I. We're not great, but we're good enough, and it only takes a few nights to learn the basics of pwnage. Then it's a matter of playing enough to learn the maps.

[Lord Chip Douglas]

I knew eventually I would get better. And I did. Maybe not the best but Im happy with my level of play.

 

I wouldn't be very happy if I were you.

 

[Guest ash-]

You don't need cheats to have an unethical advantange:

 

Edited July 25, 2006 by ash-

[Mossad]

I wish more people would suspect me of hacking... makes you feel good about yourself. My internal autoaim and azn speed hacks.

 

 

no you don't. it's really really just a huge pain in the donkey.

 

So ash the only reason you stopped was due to VAC then. Great ethics there. Ruin the game for alot of new folks to get some gratification for yourself. You say you don't like people who boast and insult newbies and yet you clearly did more damage by using cheats against them. Classic.

 

I cheated because it was very common place at the time and I was also a total newbie. VAC came around and "fixed" the cheating problem while I also became a better player myself. What is so bad about quitting cheating because VAC came around and I risked losing access to a $30-50 game? In trying to insult me you unwittingly acknowledged VAC's success at curtailing the cheating epidemic. I never said what I did was ethical and there is no reason for me to please you. I can argue all day long about your severe lack of ethics in the way you administrate and treat other players in game but at the end of the day neither of us are ethical people in each others eyes, so why start the mudslinging again Lunk?

 

Meh, it's people like you that made it very hard for me to play cs. Cheating is for people with some low self esteem that have fun by being a pain is the butt to others.