An analysis on team stacking

[tookey]

I meant to post this a long time ago, but got forumbanned. Anyway, here it is.

 

Currently, many of my friends along with me are being viewed negatively in the eyes of the GC community. We've been wrongfully accused of cheating, but the greater offense which we have been incessantly hounded about is "team-stacking." Recently, a rule was even made that when NuggZ connected after a map change, he wouldn't be allowed to pick a team until after everyone else did. Clearly because people only wanted to join his team leading to more team-stacking. Here, I will analyze the causes of team-stacking, its true negative effect, and whether or not a solution is needed for it.

 

It is obvious that when people play in the server, they want to have fun. Unfair teams are a detriment to the ability for some to have fun, because it presents a challenge that they would rather not face. However, rather than examine a more underlying cause of the losses, they would find it much easier to accuse a couple of people of "stacking," and be done with it. Team-stacking is defined as one team being considered clearly superior purely because of the individual quality of the players on it. Can we really say however, that stacked teams are the cause to the losses? I would instead view stacked teams as an opportunity. If I was on the weaker team, I would try to analyze our team's weaknesses and try and fix them. Who knows? Maybe if each player focused on their mistakes instead of attributing the loss to stacking, they could even win. Consider the 2004 NBA finals. Nobody told the Lakers about team stacking and they packed a superstar roster of Karl Malone, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, and Gary Payton. Everyone expected them to roll through the tournament securing an easy championship. However, by working better together as a team and by finding flaws and fixing weaknesses, the Pistons were able to overcome and won a glorious victory. I would in fact argue that teamwork makes a team more than players do, and there are examples of this throughout sports history.

 

Sticking with the professional sports teams, one might argue back that the teams in professional sports are balanced. Through utilising a draft procedure, teams are enforced to be somewhat even and any team is as good as another. We all know this is utter crap, yet the NBA commissioner isn't making rules saying that Dwayne Wade has to start helping the other team after half time because he is "too good." Similarly I feel that rules such as this against players in the server are unfair. One could also argue that if the other team used the same amount of teamwork we did, they would get better both as a unit and individually, and would be able to challenge one team's domination. One of the biggest reasons us being on the same team makes the team good, is our teamwork.

 

This leads nicely into reasons for stacking. The biggest reason we stack teams, is because we like to play with friends. We like to know that someone we can trust is watching our back, and it makes playing more comfortable for us. There are plenty of examples of players who are seen as "less good" always joining teams with their friends but they don't get accused of stacking. Another reason we stack, is because some maps are just way too overplayed and way too terrible to be extended to 15+ rounds. Examples of this are office, aztec, italy. We would much rather win 7-0 on a map where few people have fun anyway, to move on to a much better map. The last reason we "stack" is probably because we share some personal preferences onto what team we would rather join. I know at least in mine and NuggZ's case, we play hyper-aggressively. We hate baiting and we hate just sitting still not moving. Therefore we both would much rather play t-side on dust2, a map where t's enjoy offensive play. You would notice us often stacking t-side on aztec or cobble as well for the same reason.

 

The real question however, is whether or not team-stacking is a problem. Most would argue it is, because people have less fun when they can be killed easier. I would argue however, that the challenges which come from needing better teamwork and a lack of dependancy on NuggZ killing everyone are of far greater value to the average pubber. They learn how good players play the opposite team and can come up with effective strategies and types of teamwork to counter it. An example of this was one time on dust2 me and NorgmaN were both on terrorist. We would jump down mid and go quickly up catwalk every round. Eventually a couple of ct's caught on and started boosting to counter our rush. We were killed early in the round and the ct's ended up winning even though teams were "stacked." I would also argue that the gratification that comes from killing a "great" player far exceeds the gratification gained from winning when you didn't need to work for it, and NorgmaN did it all.

 

In conclusion, I would argue that team-stacking *is* a problem, however the players who stack aren't at fault. Instead the players on the other team, not willing to work harder for a victory, or embetter their skills as individuals and as a team are at fault, and the "good" players should not be punished. Individual skill can only extend so far. Someone who just bought counter-strike, and someone who has been Cal-I for 6 seasons can still both only shoot one awp bullet at a time, and can still only look at one direction at a time. Teamwork is what makes good players good, and can also easily eradicate the "problem" of stacking. Instead of enforcing teams, encourage people to start working together to figure out new strategies.

 

Also, ask yourself why you care so much, enough to impose rules on some people because they are better than others. I'll refer you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron . Here is a free copy of the e-book: http://vonnegut.cultish.org/harrison-bergeron/ .

 

Edit: Also if anyone does want help getting better because for some skewed reason or another, you think I'm good... it doesn't hurt to ask.

Edit2: After I wrote this was the first time I changed my name to "Tookey: I dont care if I stack"...this is why.

Edited September 28, 2007 by tookey

[mookie]

Summary:

¶1: Tookey and his friends have been accused of stacking teams. Introduction.

¶2: People play in the server to have fun. Unfair teams detract from fun. People would rather accuse someone else of stacking teams than take responsibility for being losers. Team stacking defined. Inferior teams might win if their individual players became better at CS. Real life example of a team losing to its inferior opposition. Teamwork is more valuable to a team than individual aptitude.

¶3: Straw man claim that professional sports clubs are balanced. Refute by appealing to common knowledge. Contrast inaction of the Commissioner of the NBA to action of GC admins. Teamwork is a significant factor in a team's quality.

¶4: Segue from effect to cause. Protagonists prefer each other as teammates because they are provided with better support. Other cliques also like to self-associate. When presented with a game which they don't want to play, protagonists create teams as unfair as possible to expedite the game. In a game with asymmetric objectives, protagonists have similar preferences for teams. Examples given.

¶5: Straw man claim that team stacking is a problem, citing utilitarianism. Refute by redefining utility from happiness to personal growth. Example of learning from experience. Re-factor happiness as proportional to difficulty.

¶6: Conclude that team stacking is a problem. Claim the cause of the effect of team stacking is the unwillingness of other players to become better at CS. State that all players in CS are inherently equal. Present teamwork as the solution to team stacking.

 

Tookey, I'm willing to let your argument stand on its merits at this time.

 

EDIT: http://youtube.com/watch?v=zIJgRbqoxwk

Mark in 2:30. Play through 3:40, or until the mood is set.

 

I meant to post this a long time ago, but got forumbanned. Anyway, here it is.

 

Currently, many of my friends along with me are being viewed negatively in the eyes of the GC community. We've been wrongfully accused of cheating, but the greater offense which we have been incessantly hounded about is "team-stacking." Recently, a rule was even made that when NuggZ connected after a map change, he wouldn't be allowed to pick a team until after everyone else did. Clearly because people only wanted to join his team leading to more team-stacking. Here, I will analyze the causes of team-stacking, its true negative effect, and whether or not a solution is needed for it.

 

It is obvious that when people play in the server, they want to have fun. Unfair teams are a detriment to the ability for some to have fun, because it presents a challenge that they would rather not face. However, rather than examine a more underlying cause of the losses, they would find it much easier to accuse a couple of people of "stacking," and be done with it. Team-stacking is defined as one team being considered clearly superior purely because of the individual quality of the players on it. Can we really say however, that stacked teams are the cause to the losses? I would instead view stacked teams as an opportunity. If I was on the weaker team, I would try to analyze our team's weaknesses and try and fix them. Who knows? Maybe if each player focused on their mistakes instead of attributing the loss to stacking, they could even win. Consider the 2004 NBA finals. Nobody told the Lakers about team stacking and they packed a superstar roster of Karl Malone, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, and Gary Payton. Everyone expected them to roll through the tournament securing an easy championship. However, by working better together as a team and by finding flaws and fixing weaknesses, the Pistons were able to overcome and won a glorious victory. I would in fact argue that teamwork makes a team more than players do, and there are examples of this throughout sports history.

 

Sticking with the professional sports teams, one might argue back that the teams in professional sports are balanced. Through utilising a draft procedure, teams are enforced to be somewhat even and any team is as good as another. We all know this is utter crap, yet the NBA commissioner isn't making rules saying that Dwayne Wade has to start helping the other team after half time because he is "too good." Similarly I feel that rules such as this against players in the server are unfair. One could also argue that if the other team used the same amount of teamwork we did, they would get better both as a unit and individually, and would be able to challenge one team's domination. One of the biggest reasons us being on the same team makes the team good, is our teamwork.

 

This leads nicely into reasons for stacking. The biggest reason we stack teams, is because we like to play with friends. We like to know that someone we can trust is watching our back, and it makes playing more comfortable for us. There are plenty of examples of players who are seen as "less good" always joining teams with their friends but they don't get accused of stacking. Another reason we stack, is because some maps are just way too overplayed and way too terrible to be extended to 15+ rounds. Examples of this are office, aztec, italy. We would much rather win 7-0 on a map where few people have fun anyway, to move on to a much better map. The last reason we "stack" is probably because we share some personal preferences onto what team we would rather join. I know at least in mine and NuggZ's case, we play hyper-aggressively. We hate baiting and we hate just sitting still not moving. Therefore we both would much rather play t-side on dust2, a map where t's enjoy offensive play. You would notice us often stacking t-side on aztec or cobble as well for the same reason.

 

The real question however, is whether or not team-stacking is a problem. Most would argue it is, because people have less fun when they can be killed easier. I would argue however, that the challenges which come from needing better teamwork and a lack of dependancy on NuggZ killing everyone are of far greater value to the average pubber. They learn how good players play the opposite team and can come up with effective strategies and types of teamwork to counter it. An example of this was one time on dust2 me and NorgmaN were both on terrorist. We would jump down mid and go quickly up catwalk every round. Eventually a couple of ct's caught on and started boosting to counter our rush. We were killed early in the round and the ct's ended up winning even though teams were "stacked." I would also argue that the gratification that comes from killing a "great" player far exceeds the gratification gained from winning when you didn't need to work for it, and NorgmaN did it all.

 

In conclusion, I would argue that team-stacking *is* a problem, however the players who stack aren't at fault. Instead the players on the other team, not willing to work harder for a victory, or embetter their skills as individuals and as a team are at fault, and the "good" players should not be punished. Individual skill can only extend so far. Someone who just bought counter-strike, and someone who has been Cal-I for 6 seasons can still both only shoot one awp bullet at a time, and can still only look at one direction at a time. Teamwork is what makes good players good, and can also easily eradicate the "problem" of stacking. Instead of enforcing teams, encourage people to start working together to figure out new strategies.

 

Also, ask yourself why you care so much, enough to impose rules on some people because they are better than others. I'll refer you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron . Here is a free copy of the e-book: http://vonnegut.cultish.org/harrison-bergeron/ .

 

Edit: Also if anyone does want help getting better because for some skewed reason or another, you think I'm good... it doesn't hurt to ask.

Edit2: After I wrote this was the first time I changed my name to "Tookey: I dont care if I stack"...this is why.

Edited September 28, 2007 by mookie

[Playaa]

I definitely feel that team stacking is something people complain about too much as it is. I mean, when I get on CS...I expect to lose...because I only play for fun. However, your arguments are flawed.

The biggest flaw is the professional sports teams example. The Pistons were a team of people payed to play together. They spent every day of their lives working together and building up to those games against the Lakers they worked together to figure out how to beat them and they trained in those techniques. You can't apply that argument to a bunch of casual video game players thrown together on a public server.

 

I think a valuable life lesson can be learned here and that's this: We are all playing CS to have fun when we are in a pub. Different people have different views of "fun". If your view of fun is something that causes other people to not have fun (i.e. playing on the same team as your friends even though you're clearly better than the other players on the server), then the "society" you are involved in is going to have a negative view of you. You are not entitled to being liked by everyone you come in contact with. You do not deserve respect. These are things you earn through your actions. How you influence others is important in life and, believe it or not, CS is part of life.

[mohawk]

wait, i read the first sentence and couldn't go on because i was in disbelief..

 

people think that tookey cheats or is a reason a team gets stacked?

[akaM2]

There was about a 1 week period where I noticed a big stacking problem. Since then(was about 3 weeks ago) its been fine imo.I would like to add, 1 person doesn't cause a stack. 2 people don't cause a stack. 3-4 will effect the teams a lot.Just because 2 people are good doesn't mean they should be the ones to undo or fix the stacked teams. Most people hold more skilled players to a higher standard for stacking teams.

 

but yes for a week time or so you were stacking like crazy

 

I meant to post this a long time ago, but got forumbanned. Anyway, here it is. Currently, many of my friends along with me are being viewed negatively in the eyes of the GC community. We've been wrongfully accused of cheating, but the greater offense which we have been incessantly hounded about is "team-stacking." Recently, a rule was even made that when NuggZ connected after a map change, he wouldn't be allowed to pick a team until after everyone else did.

 

No one thinks you hack, no rule was made about nuggz, the rest of your novel is ok, but dont make up stuff.

[boiler]

I don't play CS very often any more, but when I did I wasn't one to complain about team stacking. If it happened, I would try to get the team to work together on a plan, and if that didn't work and we kept losing, I would take a break to stop from getting frustrated.

 

My only comments on your thoughts tookey are these:

 

Who are you guys to decide which maps are "good" and which ones are "bad"? You think you're doing everyone a SERVICE by intentionally stacking a side just because you don't care for the map thats up? I for one enjoy office because it forces people to not rely on sniping quite as much and has more close-quarters combat. Not everyone thinks the same things you do. It's not right to automatically assume everyone would love to have a map go 7-0. I would rather have competitive matches on EVERY map, no matter how much I dislike the particular map. I can't stand Aztec normally, but if my team is making it competitive, then I have more fun. As soon as a map gets to 4-0, I start to lose interest. You want to play in an environment where your friends are always on your team and you have them to always watch your back? That's what scrims and CAL leagues are for. This is a public server; it's not terribly reasonable to expect everyone else to team up against a team with superior abilities when the rest of us have hardly (if ever) played with each other before (and certainly not in an organized fashion). The few times in the past that I have joined the server and seen this "stacking for the good of the server" crap, I have simply left the server because I have no desire to put up with that crap.

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't ever be allowed to play on the same team as your friends, but it doesn't need to happen like you say it has. Not everyone feels the same way about stuff as you. You definitely make a number of valid points, but some of it just doesn't hold up in my opinion.

 

Everyone deserves to have fun out there

 

Game on!

[Bewildered]

http://xkcd.com/231/

 

This somehow seems relevant to this discussion.

[Tyranus]

I meant to post this a long time ago, but got forumbanned. Anyway, here it is.

 

Currently, many of my friends along with me are being viewed negatively in the eyes of the GC community. We've been wrongfully accused of cheating, but the greater offense which we have been incessantly hounded about is "team-stacking." Recently, a rule was even made that when NuggZ connected after a map change, he wouldn't be allowed to pick a team until after everyone else did. Clearly because people only wanted to join his team leading to more team-stacking. Here, I will analyze the causes of team-stacking, its true negative effect, and whether or not a solution is needed for it.

 

It is obvious that when people play in the server, they want to have fun. Unfair teams are a detriment to the ability for some to have fun, because it presents a challenge that they would rather not face. However, rather than examine a more underlying cause of the losses, they would find it much easier to accuse a couple of people of "stacking," and be done with it. Team-stacking is defined as one team being considered clearly superior purely because of the individual quality of the players on it. Can we really say however, that stacked teams are the cause to the losses? I would instead view stacked teams as an opportunity. If I was on the weaker team, I would try to analyze our team's weaknesses and try and fix them. Who knows? Maybe if each player focused on their mistakes instead of attributing the loss to stacking, they could even win. Consider the 2004 NBA finals. Nobody told the Lakers about team stacking and they packed a superstar roster of Karl Malone, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, and Gary Payton. Everyone expected them to roll through the tournament securing an easy championship. However, by working better together as a team and by finding flaws and fixing weaknesses, the Pistons were able to overcome and won a glorious victory. I would in fact argue that teamwork makes a team more than players do, and there are examples of this throughout sports history.

 

Sticking with the professional sports teams, one might argue back that the teams in professional sports are balanced. Through utilising a draft procedure, teams are enforced to be somewhat even and any team is as good as another. We all know this is utter crap, yet the NBA commissioner isn't making rules saying that Dwayne Wade has to start helping the other team after half time because he is "too good." Similarly I feel that rules such as this against players in the server are unfair. One could also argue that if the other team used the same amount of teamwork we did, they would get better both as a unit and individually, and would be able to challenge one team's domination. One of the biggest reasons us being on the same team makes the team good, is our teamwork.

 

This leads nicely into reasons for stacking. The biggest reason we stack teams, is because we like to play with friends. We like to know that someone we can trust is watching our back, and it makes playing more comfortable for us. There are plenty of examples of players who are seen as "less good" always joining teams with their friends but they don't get accused of stacking. Another reason we stack, is because some maps are just way too overplayed and way too terrible to be extended to 15+ rounds. Examples of this are office, aztec, italy. We would much rather win 7-0 on a map where few people have fun anyway, to move on to a much better map. The last reason we "stack" is probably because we share some personal preferences onto what team we would rather join. I know at least in mine and NuggZ's case, we play hyper-aggressively. We hate baiting and we hate just sitting still not moving. Therefore we both would much rather play t-side on dust2, a map where t's enjoy offensive play. You would notice us often stacking t-side on aztec or cobble as well for the same reason.

 

The real question however, is whether or not team-stacking is a problem. Most would argue it is, because people have less fun when they can be killed easier. I would argue however, that the challenges which come from needing better teamwork and a lack of dependancy on NuggZ killing everyone are of far greater value to the average pubber. They learn how good players play the opposite team and can come up with effective strategies and types of teamwork to counter it. An example of this was one time on dust2 me and NorgmaN were both on terrorist. We would jump down mid and go quickly up catwalk every round. Eventually a couple of ct's caught on and started boosting to counter our rush. We were killed early in the round and the ct's ended up winning even though teams were "stacked." I would also argue that the gratification that comes from killing a "great" player far exceeds the gratification gained from winning when you didn't need to work for it, and NorgmaN did it all.

 

In conclusion, I would argue that team-stacking *is* a problem, however the players who stack aren't at fault. Instead the players on the other team, not willing to work harder for a victory, or embetter their skills as individuals and as a team are at fault, and the "good" players should not be punished. Individual skill can only extend so far. Someone who just bought counter-strike, and someone who has been Cal-I for 6 seasons can still both only shoot one awp bullet at a time, and can still only look at one direction at a time. Teamwork is what makes good players good, and can also easily eradicate the "problem" of stacking. Instead of enforcing teams, encourage people to start working together to figure out new strategies.

 

Also, ask yourself why you care so much, enough to impose rules on some people because they are better than others. I'll refer you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron . Here is a free copy of the e-book: http://vonnegut.cultish.org/harrison-bergeron/ .

 

Edit: Also if anyone does want help getting better because for some skewed reason or another, you think I'm good... it doesn't hurt to ask.

Edit2: After I wrote this was the first time I changed my name to "Tookey: I dont care if I stack"...this is why.

 

Me me me Us us us! Case in point.

[Bubblegum Bandit]

I'd like to pose a few quandries here. First and very foremost. Why do you guys play here? There are hundreds of thousands of servers out there where you can go play with your friends and no one is going to say anything about stacking. What are the reasons you choose to play here?

 

I can only deduct that its either because you are "good" players and everyone else thinks you hack or there are other people around here who aren't as "good" as you that you enjoy playing with? That being said, GC servers offer a service to you. Otherwise you'd go elsewhere. So, piggybacking on Ty's limited response, we offer and you take, how about giving back a little.

 

I would in fact argue that teamwork makes a team more than players do, and there are examples of this throughout sports history.

 

One could also argue that if the other team used the same amount of teamwork we did, they would get better both as a unit and individually, and would be able to challenge one team's domination. One of the biggest reasons us being on the same team makes the team good, is our teamwork.

 

So if you guys are such "good" players because of your teamwork. Why not switch teams and help others to learn. If you took it upon yourselves to do that, you wouldn't have to worry about any of these problems. You would have lots of friends who could give you the comfort and trust of watching your backs.

 

They learn how good players play the opposite team and can come up with effective strategies and types of teamwork to counter it.

 

I'm a large proponent of learning from losing...however, there's an extent to it. When you get stomped into the ground you don't learn much. You learn from losing to teams that play close to your level. Otherwise its pure frustration.

 

In conclusion, I would argue that team-stacking *is* a problem, however the players who stack aren't at fault. Instead the players on the other team, not willing to work harder for a victory, or embetter their skills as individuals and as a team are at fault, and the "good" players should not be punished. Individual skill can only extend so far. Someone who just bought counter-strike, and someone who has been Cal-I for 6 seasons can still both only shoot one awp bullet at a time, and can still only look at one direction at a time. Teamwork is what makes good players good, and can also easily eradicate the "problem" of stacking. Instead of enforcing teams, encourage people to start working together to figure out new strategies.

 

Again I would argue that switching in the short term would alleviate the whole problem in the long term AND you'd have the satisfaction of knowing you are creating a better server atmosphere for your favorite servers....

 

We all know this is utter crap, yet the NBA commissioner isn't making rules saying that Dwayne Wade has to start helping the other team after half time because he is "too good." Similarly I feel that rules such as this against players in the server are unfair.

 

I can respect that you have feelings different from GC in this reguard. And honestly, we strive to keep truely "good" players around here. We don't want to be one of those communities that cries hack without proof. However, the rules are laid down in this community for a reason. So I would assume you'd show the respect to play elsewhere if you can't follow the rules here.

[tookey]

No one thinks you hack, no rule was made about nuggz, the rest of your novel is ok, but dont make up stuff.

I was definitely in the server when someone offered one hundred dollars to the person who caught nuggz cheating, because he was sure of it and no one had gotten around to demoing him. I was also definitely in the server when an admin told nuggz he couldn't join a team until he was the last person to join. Those both definitely happened.

 

And to answer bubblegum bandits questions: So if you guys are such "good" players because of your teamwork. Why not switch teams and help others to learn. If you took it upon yourselves to do that, you wouldn't have to worry about any of these problems. You would have lots of friends who could give you the comfort and trust of watching your backs.I have in the past, spent time with people who wanted lessons from me (because for some reason they think im good). They weren't afraid to ask for help and I gave it. Most of the time however when I try to give advice to a teammate they yell at me for not letting them play their way, so I gave up unless it was asked for. It seems to me that people *don't* want to get better. Us unstacking in the short term only helps these pubbers stay bad, and leads to even more complaining when we do play on the same team. I would argue it actually hurts in the long run, and the more we unstack, the more we are forced to unstack unreasonably.

 

I do have respect for, and follow the rules...but its getting a little ridiculous when people cry stack when there are only two of us on the same team, or three of us on one team and one of us on the opposite.

 

I agree it really isn't our decision whether or not a map was good, but if for example we did unstack aztec or played t-side (both of which we do regularly), the ct's would still for the most part win, and the t's would all rush out and die excepting a few who the burden of clutching rests upon. Thats how every round goes on aztec. On inferno, once the ct's win a round, all the t's get scared and don't leave spawn for the rest of the map. On office a couple of ct's rush and die, or rush and meet the rushing t's. After that its up to a couple of t's who hid to win the round. On italy, if you rush theres a 90% chance you get killed in the side by a flanker, so you have to camp and take it slow. You can see why these maps get repetitive, or not fun after a while. But I can see why its still not our decision and even when t's get skunked with us stacking the terrorist side, it could maybe be fun for someone else. (Another note to point out, we've only done this a few times, but for the larger part we play the hard side on every map we join. Once we get tired of having to do all the work on the hard side, we switch for a couple of maps...this usually happens when its aztec or cbble, you get sick of playing t-side on these maps every time pretty quickly.)

 

Finally as a last point, if any of you remember when I first started playing at GC I was horrendous. I was still in AoD (random pub clan), and could only get kills with p90s. I just hung around/got stomped by other people in the server, and I got better. I still do get stomped by people, and learn from it. To me, its the easiest way to learn how to play.

Edited September 28, 2007 by tookey

[akaM2]

I was definitely in the server when someone offered one hundred dollars to the person who caught nuggz cheating, because he was sure of it and no one had gotten around to demoing him. I was also definitely in the server when an admin told nuggz he couldn't join a team until he was the last person to join. Those both definitely happened.

 

Notice how I said "You"

 

Ive talked to both parties of the hacking accusation you are speaking about. If nuggz is upset about that situation, maybe he should post about it. He hasn't seemed upset about it the last few nights in vent.

[tookey]

I was definitely in the server when someone offered one hundred dollars to the person who caught nuggz cheating, because he was sure of it and no one had gotten around to demoing him. I was also definitely in the server when an admin told nuggz he couldn't join a team until he was the last person to join. Those both definitely happened.

 

Notice how I said "You"

 

Ive talked to both parties of the hacking accusation you are speaking about. If nuggz is upset about that situation, maybe he should post about it. He hasn't seemed upset about it the last few nights in vent.

We actually think its kind of funny more than anything else, but I was just pointing out that it happened. Not that we felt offended.

[alvin]

First off...

 

Now that we're on the same page...

 

We're not here to make the server fit all your personal needs. You're welcome to start up your own server if you'd like though! www.network602.com hosts some nice servers! Then you can make it fit all your preferences on what a good server should be.

 

It seems to me that people *don't* want to get better. Us unstacking in the short term only helps these pubbers stay bad, and leads to even more complaining when we do play on the same team. I would argue it actually hurts in the long run, and the more we unstack, the more we are forced to unstack unreasonably.

 

People play games to have fun. So you shouldn't assume everyone is here to become a no life gaming god. If this is your goal, then you are a unique individual. Just let the pubbers have their fun. We're not a training camp for professional CS competitions, ok?

 

Once we get tired of having to do all the work on the hard side, we switch for a couple of maps...this usually happens when its aztec or cbble, you get sick of playing t-side on these maps every time pretty quickly.)

 

Remember, you are unique! Aztec is actually T sided on such a big pub. You just need to rush out there with your team and not try to clutch it because, remember, you are unique! And how can you get sick of playing the hard side when you have a "hyper-aggressive" play style? Shouldn't it be more fun rushing? I noticed NuggZ likes to sit in the back and bait his team, but come on! It should make it easier on the harder side to do this too! You can clutch it you unique person you!

 

Man, I love that Unique poster. Well, Off to work. 4 Hours of working on car then got to relax... Now off to work for 8 hours! See you all later! In.. 8 hours i'll respond if there's something worth responding to.

[mohawk]

I was definitely in the server when someone offered one hundred dollars to the person who caught nuggz cheating, because he was sure of it and no one had gotten around to demoing him. I was also definitely in the server when an admin told nuggz he couldn't join a team until he was the last person to join. Those both definitely happened.

 

Notice how I said "You"

 

Ive talked to both parties of the hacking accusation you are speaking about. If nuggz is upset about that situation, maybe he should post about it. He hasn't seemed upset about it the last few nights in vent.

We actually think its kind of funny more than anything else, but I was just pointing out that it happened. Not that we felt offended.

 

lol are you like his official forum spokesman? i still don't understand the point of this thread?.. Yeah- some of our members our bad, they like being bad, and will continue to be bad. They don't like hanging out in the servers and playing with friends. They enjoy playing and being bad, and then complaining about team stacking..

 

 

Either ignore the complaints of team stacking if you don't think it's actually occuring.. and if it is an issue an admin will deal with it accordingly, or hey, if you want to play in the server and not have to worry about it, it's as simple as just switching teams every once in a while! Wow, so difficult..

 

I'm going to call it as I see it on this one... It seems like the point of this thread has been more to make sure that every knows you're affiliated with some of the better players that play in GC then anything else. Or maybe you were trying to sell lessons? lol

 

Do people really accuse you of team stacking alot? or cheating?

 

67 -42 Tookey 727 443 1.64 0.72 16:51:06 13165.72

Edited September 28, 2007 by mohawk

[tookey]

The real point of this thread was as a response to admins yelling at us for stacking when teams weren't all that stacked. This does happen really frequently, and its really aggravating, but whatever...I guess its falling on deaf ears and I'll be forced not to play with friends as long as an admin thinks its not right.

 

I still maintain that two of us on one team isn't stacked, and 3 of us on one team with 1 of us on the other, is still not stacked. But we get yelled at for it anyway. I frankly don't care if I'm one of the 2, or one of the 3, but I guess that if some admins do, I will respect their decision. This wasn't really supposed to turn into a fight the power kinda thread, and I guess it did, so I apologize.

Edited September 28, 2007 by tookey

[Wolfsblood]

If playing here is so aggravating to you, play somewhere else. Simple as that.

[tookey]

If playing here is so aggravating to you, play somewhere else. Simple as that.

 

While I am aggravated by the whole team stacking nonsense, it's not like every pub out there is actually hosted on a good server, and it's not like I want to just ditch all the friends I do have here, so I'd rather put up with it. I didn't want this to turn into an angry thread and it has, so I'd appreciate if a mod closed it or something. It's just making me look like an aggressor when I'm not trying to be.

[shaftiel]

If playing here is so aggravating to you, play somewhere else. Simple as that.

 

While I am aggravated by the whole team stacking nonsense, it's not like every pub out there is actually hosted on a good server, and it's not like I want to just ditch all the friends I do have here, so I'd rather put up with it. I didn't want this to turn into an angry thread and it has, so I'd appreciate if a mod closed it or something. It's just making me look like an aggressor when I'm not trying to be.

 

 

Fair enough. You were trying to make a point that you felt was important, and it turned ugly on you. Happens to the best of us .

 

In response to your posts, I would say that this is a game, plain and simple. As such it is ment to be fun. If it was a sport, then I could understand the idea of trying to win being greater than trying to have fun. But its not. Do I get frustrated when I get destroyed by someone in this game? Heck yeah! And thats the crux of this issue. At what point does the fun of the majority trump the fun of the one? If time after time one guy, or group of people, create a atmosphere of 'unfun' (heh) on the server, what should we do? Regardless of whether it is intentional or not, 'we' need to address it in some fashion. Can we make everyone better, and thus create a more level playing field? No. Can we remove the thorn in the side of fun? Yes, but that seems pretty extreme to me. Can we talk to those who are causing this outcry and come to some sort of agreement, thus maintaining the fun environment we all love and cherish? Yes, and that seems like the best way to go. So what do you think Tookie? Given that we can not make people play better, or work as a team, what are our options? Would you like to just leave, I for one would not like to set that presidence. Or would it be better for everyone if we shuffled the teams if it gets to be 0-4 or so? I also think it would be fun to trade the 2 worst players on the losing side for the two best players on the winning side. Heck, the 2 sent to the winning side might even get some kills and have fun then!

 

In the end, we are here to have fun. Thats all. You shouldn't expect anything else from us.

 

 

 

Shaftiel

[tookey]

If playing here is so aggravating to you, play somewhere else. Simple as that.

 

While I am aggravated by the whole team stacking nonsense, it's not like every pub out there is actually hosted on a good server, and it's not like I want to just ditch all the friends I do have here, so I'd rather put up with it. I didn't want this to turn into an angry thread and it has, so I'd appreciate if a mod closed it or something. It's just making me look like an aggressor when I'm not trying to be.

 

 

Fair enough. You were trying to make a point that you felt was important, and it turned ugly on you. Happens to the best of us .

 

In response to your posts, I would say that this is a game, plain and simple. As such it is ment to be fun. If it was a sport, then I could understand the idea of trying to win being greater than trying to have fun. But its not. Do I get frustrated when I get destroyed by someone in this game? Heck yeah! And thats the crux of this issue. At what point does the fun of the majority trump the fun of the one? If time after time one guy, or group of people, create a atmosphere of 'unfun' (heh) on the server, what should we do? Regardless of whether it is intentional or not, 'we' need to address it in some fashion. Can we make everyone better, and thus create a more level playing field? No. Can we remove the thorn in the side of fun? Yes, but that seems pretty extreme to me. Can we talk to those who are causing this outcry and come to some sort of agreement, thus maintaining the fun environment we all love and cherish? Yes, and that seems like the best way to go. So what do you think Tookie? Given that we can not make people play better, or work as a team, what are our options? Would you like to just leave, I for one would not like to set that presidence. Or would it be better for everyone if we shuffled the teams if it gets to be 0-4 or so? I also think it would be fun to trade the 2 worst players on the losing side for the two best players on the winning side. Heck, the 2 sent to the winning side might even get some kills and have fun then!

 

In the end, we are here to have fun. Thats all. You shouldn't expect anything else from us.

 

 

 

Shaftiel

 

Fair enough, and I agree for the most part. But what happens when its 4-0 not because of stacking, but because for example all the ct's on cbble rush when they shouldn't...several times in a row? My argument here I guess now that I put more thought into it is that stacking isnt *always* the problem?

[LoveForPriscillaChan]

tookey, i am probably one of those people that is "hounding" you guys for team-stacking (although i think the word "to hound" is a bit extreme)

 

please refer to this thread made a while back: http://www.gamrs.co/forums/in...showtopic=33049

 

first off, let's get some things straight: i believe i can say this with confidence that most regulars on the server do not believe you guys hack; only the random people that stumble upon the server do

 

i also think its false to say that you and nuggz "for the larger part" play on the harder side of the map because many times, i always find you guys on T for italy, CT for cobble, CT for aztec, etc etc but this point i'm willing to conceded because it is due to my own observations only and that could be wrong

 

you see, the reason you guys get the flak for team stacking is because when teams ARE stacked, we look at the top of the leaderboard and blame the top 2 or 3 people on there; it doesnt help that they are usually the same people and it doesnt help when those same people are in the same clan

 

i mean, i always auto and it just annoys me to see that, for example, i get autoed to CT on italy, the map is 5 T vs 4 CT and there are 10 specs waiting to join the teams; i see nuggz on T; next thing i know when round ends, the team is 10 T v 9 CT and it "just so happens" you guys are all on T; this proceeds on for several maps in a row, each time we lose 7-0, 7-0, 6-1, 7-0, etc etc. What's worse is that looking at the scoreboard, all the people that are 24-3, 26-5, 22-4, etc are all on the same team while not a single person on the losing team breaks .500 or if they do, its barely

 

i'm sure everybody would love to improve their CS game but ultimately, we just want to have some fun and relieve some stress by playing CS but losing round after round, getting awped round after round, seeing 4 guys dying to ak spray to one person round after round is no fun

 

as for teamwork always trumps individual skill, i dont think the mechanics of CS is built to suit that; we've all seen you guys with awps and how, more or less, the game just got exponentially harder for the opposing team once you guys save enough money for awps; one of you guys with an awp can take down 4-5 people easily; even if we have really good teamwork, we will have poor execution because we lack individual skills

 

so in the end, yes it is partly our fault that we suck but should the fun be taken away from us because we are just not as good as you guys? i dont think so; besides, wouldnt you guys have more fun if hte teams were even skill-wise? what's the point of playing a game where you know you will win almost everytime?

 

so, is there a solution? i think yes; it is not a perfect solution but like many things in life, perfection is an impossibility but we should always be tiring endlessly trying to achieve it; all regulars (i would love to replace "all regulars" with "everybody" but I know getting just the regulars to do this will be a really big stretch to begin with) should random; no longer should i see 10 people in spectator mode waiting for some poor sap to sacrifice their next 40 min for fun by joining the almost-guaranteed losing team so they could join the almost-guaranteed winning team; i random all the time and it is a lot of fun getting to play both sides of the map; to those of you who say having people random will not solve team-stacking, i beg to differ; yes, probabilisically, there is still a chance that teams will be stacked but (and i think math is behind me on this) there is a much greater chance (think bell curve) that teams will be even rather than being stacked; the results are...random, as the name suggests; if i knew that everybody truly did random and teams are stacked for several rounds in a row and i happen to be on the losing round, i wont feel bad about it; i'll just think: ok, i'm just having some really bad luck tonight, i'll just quit and try again tomorrow; however, if night after night (and i know the problem is nowhere near this bad, but i'm just using this extreme as an example) the same people are on the same team owning everybody, it gets tiring and makes playing CS much less appealing;

 

a more strict solution is to have some form of server monitor, such as ptb, that uses total amount of skill as a balancer instead of just number of people per team but we should try the "in good faith, please random" policy first

 

so please please random and dont care what team your clanmates end up in

[Peckles]

I'm going to move people around when I feel the teams are too unfair. That's all. Teamstacking happens, whether it's intentional or not, and it's up to the admins to deal with it. We're here to have fun, and it's up to the admins to provide that fun-friendly environment.

[akaM2]

I like sugar free redbull

[Bewildered]

[ZgguN]

Would someone add my name to the swear filter.

BTW Tookey, M2, Norg, Limb or even god himself doesn't speak for me, so quit talking about me and make fun of M2 or something

 

I don't care if you think the teams are stacked and want me to switch, just ask me and i will. do not just move me with out asking that is rude

Edited September 30, 2007 by ZgguN

[3vil]

if you kill me,you are hacking,plain and simple! now for seriousness.if you feel people are team stacking,change your tactics tocounter the way they are playing and it may change the outcome of the"stacking."