Do Regulars deserve a verbal warning? banned

[Fatty]

I see regulars avoid the swear filter, call names, retaliate for TA, whine and groan about this or that, complain about lag, etc, etc, and so on. What do we do when we KNOW for a fact that a person KNOWS our server rules?

 

I know it's obvious what my opinion in this poll is, so I'm sorry it's sorta rigged. I just feel VERY strongly about the guys that are long-time community members that still push buttons and pull stunts.

[Killer]

Im speaking on behalf of myself here. I rarley play in trop, but I do play in community servers, but lets skip to my point.

 

Yes the regs should knwo the rules and your first choice in the poll should be how it is in a perfect world, but....

 

Like myself, were all human here. Everyone gets a temper, everyone has bad days, and some people are just jerks and could care less about the rules. When you get team attacked, the chances are you will get mad and do something back, you cant fight that urge sometime. Or when someone is saying something that just really ticks ya off, you like to talk back. It all happens, but in the end nobody was hurt. Id just like to say that the regs know the rules and should set the example and be perfect in the servers, but it isnt always that way.

[DJ Premier]

I'm hanging out with a group of buddies on a random night and we're having some drinks, talking about whatever, chillin' out and just doing what friends do. Then one of the guys does something or says something that makes the other guys go "whoa". But we've all known each other for a while and so we kinda just let it go. But for some reason, he does it again and the rest of the guys are like "hey, whats your problem today? Cut that crap out". Then a few minutes later, a stranger walks by us while we're all just chilling out and he says a something bad. My buddies and I, without saying anything, grab a lead pipe and beat his head in.

 

In the instance of "regulars should know better"..... I consider some of you my "buddies". I talk to some of you online, play games frequently and joke around with some of you in forums. So you guys are "buddies" to me. So, when my buddy pulls out a lead pipe and beats my other buddy's head in for saying something bad but then give the free pass to the stranger who walked by and said the same thing, I begin to think something is very wrong with the picture.

[Fatty]

I disagree with your analogy completely. First of all, the situation used is a little far-fetched. Let's bring it back to reality...cause your buddy isn't going to beat on your with a pipe.

 

How about smoking in my car? If you're a friend of the family, you know that we don't smoke in our cars, nor in our house. Mini is a close friend of mine, so he'll be the "regular who knows the rules." If Mini were to get in our car and start to light up, I'd be like WTH? Knock it off! Frankly, it wouldn't happen, because he already knows that we don't smoke in the car or house.

 

Say I pick up Col. Sanders, who I know but don't know on a personal basis yet. He pulls out a Swisher Sweet and a lighter. Do I raise my voice at him and say, what in the heck are you doing? No, I'd say, hey man, we don't smoke in our cars.

 

Would I raise my voice at Mini if he pulled out a Camel in our Explorer? Heck ya because he already knows better, so he's obviously not thinking. Shouldn't/wouldn't happen.

 

The point? You would tend to think that regulars shouldn't/wouldn't break the rules. However, they do. No, they don't deserve the same "warning/breakin/tenderness" that a new person does, because A) they already know the rules, and the new person doesn't.

 

Now, if you want to go for the "beating me over the head with a pipe" extremity....if a new guy comes in a tk's at the spawn, he's banned perm. Gone. That's just outright troublemaking. If a community member starts tking at spawn, you're like, what the heck are you doing? Are you out of your mind? (that is if he hasn't been kicked/banned yet). Again, shouldn't happen because the guy is hopefully playing in a place that he knows and enjoys.

 

Example II: You don't celebrate Christmas and a new friend sends you a Christmas card. At some point, you share with him that you don't celebrate Christmas (his warning). Your brother, who you've long debated theology with, knows that you don't celebrate Christmas, and sends you a Christmas card. Something wrong, there.

 

Example III: I am growing some exotic plant in my flower bed. Bean comes over and helps me with my lawn, and starts to wack it down....I say, hey, hey, dude, that's not a weed! He says, oops. My wife, however, was there when I bought the plant and helped me plant it, yanks it out and runs it through the shredder. A little different. Bean didn't know, my wife did...so she's banned.

[Fatty]

Also, yes, DJ, there are times when treatment is and should be the same....extreme ones, such as a pipe beating.

 

For example:

newbie trying to hack our rcon: perm IP ban

regular trying to hack our rcon: perm IP ban

 

Although there are a couple people that have attempted rcon on us in the community along with another that we haven't done anything with because we chose to fry the bigger fish.

[gOOters]

nm

[Gond]

I'm with Fatty on this one. You know the rules, obey them. Specially if it's intentional.

 

Rules is rules...play by them or go someplace else...wanna swear...do it without pushing talk on the mike.

[DJ Premier]

I disagree with your analogy completely.  First of all, the situation used is a little far-fetched.  Let's bring it back to reality...cause your buddy isn't going to beat on your with a pipe.

 

....Mini is a close friend of mine, so he'll be the "regular who knows the rules."  If Mini were to get in our car and start to light up, I'd be like WTH?  Knock it off!....

 

......Would I raise my voice at Mini if he pulled out a Camel in our Explorer?  Heck ya because he already knows better, so he's obviously not thinking.  Shouldn't/wouldn't happen.......

I don't equate "WTH? Knock it off!" with a permanent ban. I equate a perm ban with a lead pipe. So a revised analogy would be that mini_me lights up in your explorer, you pull over w/o saying a word and throw him out of your car and drive away.

 

The difference between throwing mini out of your car and yelling at him is the difference between a ban and a just yellin'. It also is the difference between ppl sympathizing with you and ppl going against you. The use of a ban is an exercise of force and power, simply because that's as far extreme as it can go (well...the IP ban is worse i guess). Certain factions within Mmmm have made the use of force a regular occurrence against the folks that I would think were their buddies.

 

So maybe we aren't buddies. I mean, I don't treat my buddies like that and I sure wouldnt associate with ppl who do. Maybe this is merely an exclusive club where you have to have the right background, education, color, sex and know the right ppl to get in. You know, the ones that Frasier and Niles always wants to get into...the "rich protestant with german blood that must know the president in real life" type club (no offense intended to rich german protestants). The one where you have to follow the rules explicitly or get kicked out without warning. The one where everyone appears to be friends but they really aren't. They're just glad to be in the club so they tip toe around with a half smile so they can still have exclusive rights to play golf in the private course with all of the other members (who aren't buddies). If it is, I see enough "exclusive members only" clubs in NYC to make me sick and I sure wouldn't want to bring one home with me while I try and play a game with my buddies.

 

You PM'd me today, asking what my problem was. Why i "lurk" around. Why I continue to bring negativity and not contribute. In my mind, i AM contributing. I am trying to realign and correct the course cuz somewhere along the trip, the driver took a wrong turn. Maybe I don't just ask to be let out of the car. Maybe I say I'm getting out but somewhere deep inside, I dont want to. Maybe my destination is the same. Maybe we all want to get to the same place. Maybe I'll continually point out that the course is wrong. Is that negativity? Maybe in the eyes of the driver.

 

Maybe you and I are just very different. Maybe my Zen philosophy's don't mesh well with your philosophies of judge, juror and executioner. Whatever it is, in the very very very end of it all, I think the majority of the ppl who play this game in a community, play because they want to play with "buddies" and not with "club members".

 

Like I've said before, I'm a very simple laid back guy with a few core principles that I defend. I have many trusted friends and we all treat each other with respect. Once in a while, someone will step out of line. But we as friends are more understanding of one another. Because that's what buddies do. They give more to each other than the stranger, simply because they are friends.

[Fatty]

They give more to each other than the stranger, simply because they are friends.

You are exactly right, and it starts with respect for each other, which is why we expect more respect from a friend than from a stranger.

 

The same issue arises with marijuana and the lan party. I have to sign a contract and pay $1600 for a barn. In the contract (and in the law of the USA) it states no drugs. Yet I still have to deal with this issue. Why is that? I thought the people that would sign up for this would be one of these friends....giving to each other in the form of respect. Yet I am made out to be some bad guy for asking that we follow rules.

 

I like talking of friends, but I fear most of the people that we butt heads with in these forums take way more than they give, and then raise some hell when somebody pulls the nipple from their mouth (sorry, new child in house, analogy just placed itself there).

 

And yes, back to Mini, if for some strange reason, he decided to go ahead and light the smoke, I would stop the car and have him get out. I guess this is a bad analogy because he wouldn't do this, only because, as above, he's my friend, and in part of giving, he gives respect.

[DJ Premier]

And yes, back to Mini, if for some strange reason, he decided to go ahead and light the smoke, I would stop the car and have him get out.

Would you really? In the same way you perm ban ppl? That's analogous of you pulling him over and THROWING him out, then driving off and then expecting him to call you later on the phone (forums) and say he's sorry.

 

Asking him to leave gives him the opportunity for a rebuttal. A firm ban w/o warning does not. The screen goes black. Game over. The analogy is appropriate. I'm sure in the end mini will still be a lil'tinkled he was thrown out w/o warning. And it keeps happening with all of your buddies and then after a while, ppl just aren't as friendly anymore. The whines start, the complaints build....hmmm....I wonder where it went wrong you ask. Yeah, I wonder too.

 

Like I stated before, you have a group of friends. They do respect each other. But sometimes someone steps out of line. What do you do? Lead pipe (ban) or just give em a piece of your mind (warning)?

 

I dunno. Usually, when I'm in fox and someone curses, I just say "hey now" and they immediately say sorry and dont do it again. Who knows, I guess that's why its empty? Maybe I do have the wrong idea.

[Guest zerodamage]

...I think this: either warn people because we are not all robots and we slip. Or treat ALL REGULARS the same way. No matter who it is, even one of your own fellow Mmmm (because I have heard it from them too). There have been many times where an Mmmm admin let someone go (in DLM for example) after calling someone an F-er and then the next person who calls someone a jackass in a kidding way is perm banned.

 

I just think it is stupid posting about Mmmm swearing here when you guys make and enforce the rules but sometimes, just like the rest of us humans, make mistakes as well.

 

It is just that most of us are laid back and understand human error.

Edited June 27, 2003 by zerodamage

[gOOters]

DJ Premier Posted on Jun 26 2003, 08:04 PM

 

Usually, when I'm in fox and someone curses, I just say "hey now" and they immediately say sorry and dont do it again. Who knows, I guess that's why its empty? Maybe I do have the wrong idea.

 

Ahhh...I've been working alot this week. I'll be there this weekend DJ

[Lunk]

I dunno.  Usually, when I'm in fox and someone curses, I just say "hey now" and they immediately say sorry and dont do it again.  Who knows, I guess that's why its empty?  Maybe I do have the wrong idea.

The above is how I normally handle regulars when they slip up.

 

Now if it's someone new they'll get a tsay.

 

I get tired of being an donkey burrow all the time. Goes against my nature. Because I'm one of the most laid back guys you'll ever meet.

[ConGregation]

<Lunk continues as he levels his M4a1 at the crowd.. "Anyone care to disagree?!">

[Mmmm Sanders]

How about if some1 avoids the filter, your response is hey can you watch your langauge plz, and that some1 never responds.Next map the filter is avoided. by that same person again. What do you do?

 

What im saying is people do it to push the limits. I like to see the regulars on here so in return i show favoritism towards them, but at the same time their the regs who i think are on the same level as me as far as our rules go.

 

When i was in MwR i might have dropped a curse once or twice on the community servers, but at the same time i was never warned because i very rarely curse. I think that stems from me not wanting that kind of attention. When i start seeing them kind of words thrown around without meaning it reminds me of the sogamed server i play on very rarely. I like the skill level there but not the most of the company 7-10 times i usually leave cause im hearing some ignorant kid yell out meaningless vulgarity on his mic or typing something stupid on all text. I asked him to just play and his reply his f-u noob lol. (nice kid)

 

My point is people in our community should have more chances then a new member to the server but at the same time their are some members who just never learn and it gets kind of old. In return they get banned, then they complain, and then Mmmm stands up for what they believe in and that=bad reputation. Were really in a lose-lose situtation.

 

I wish we could have a nicely ran server were everyone gets along unfortunately it doesnt work that way.

[White Knight]

I wish we could have a nicely ran server were everyone gets along unfortunately it doesnt work that way.

 

Ahh the Utopian society.

 

My 2 cents...as one who very often screws up and cusses via mic, then apologizes...though can honestly say that my cussing as a whole has lowered since joining this community.

 

IMHO there is a distinct difference between cussing on mic and avoiding the filter. The difference is conscious thought. If I get tinkled and think in my mind "SUUUMM B*%$^$%" and then I hit the mic key w/out thinking (<---my normal problem) and say "SUUUM B#%(*%" is really a mistake that would not normally occur. I am not saying that there is nothing wrong here, but this is not deservable of banning/kicking...simply pointing out (if the person does not respond/apologize) should be enough. Continuence of course would be meritous of a kick.

 

However, a person makes a conscious decision to avoid the filter, to say a banned word, knowing that they are not allowed to mention that word on this server. This is near unexcusable IMHO, because they make the decision to commit a 'crime' here.

 

Does that make sense? Maybe I'm off base, but thats my thoughts...and with that, and $150K, you can buy a Ferrari 360 Spider.

[DJ Premier]

How about if some1 avoids the filter, your response is hey can you watch your langauge plz, and that some1 never responds.Next map the filter is avoided. by that same person again. What do you do?

I wouldn't classify this person as a friend of mine, therefore, I would say something. Do it again, kick em. Do it again, ban. Never comes off list unless there are some extreme circumstances. That's always been my admin style and it continues to be so today.

 

When i was in MwR i might have dropped a curse once or twice on the community servers, but at the same time i was never warned because i very rarely curse.

And what did DOH do? I don't think you would have returned if we perm banned you for dropping that curse. Then who would be the one who lost out? you or me. I'd say me.

 

My point is people in our community should have more chances then a new member to the server but at the same time their are some members who just never learn and it gets kind of old. In return they get banned, then they complain, and then Mmmm stands up for what they believe in and that=bad reputation. Were really in a lose-lose situtation.

 

This is where the power->responsibility->humility. Everyone is always so eager to look outward rather than inward. These problems didn't just "show up". What caused it? Maybe it was the influx of new players? Maybe it was some of the regulars gone bad? Maybe it was was Mmmm? Probably all of them but i dont see any admissions of mistakes coming from your neck of the woods which i'm sure irritates some ppl. Once again, maybe its the Zen style in me but I ALWAYS look inward when something goes wrong as well as outwards.

 

No one is saying that you shouldn't ban ppl. Hell, I support bans when there is a good reason. But the command went from "if you dont like it, then get out (ban)" to "yur a regular, you should know better (ban)". I'm not even sure what's worse.

[Fatty]

I'm sure in the end mini will still be a lil'tinkled he was thrown out w/o warning.  And it keeps happening with all of your buddies and then after a while, ppl just aren't as friendly anymore.

1) It's still a rediculous argument because it would never get to this point. A friend wouldn't light up in my car having always known we don't smoke in it.

 

2) If it keeps happening, I need new friends.

 

This argument has no basis because it's completely ficticious. You can't talk about friends wronging you with the lead pipe, because the moment they pick up the lead pipe and swing, I would suggest the "friendship" is forfeited...so now you're no longer dealing with a friend.

 

If I lose a friend because they can't not smoke in my car...oh well! Honestly, I don't need that friend. It was their choice, not mine.

 

If our server loses players because they can't respect simple rules....oh well! They're just there to make trouble anyways. So in the end, it DOES come back to the "If you can't deal with the rules, play elsewhere" ideal, because a person that knows the rules and disregards them is NOT a friend.

[Fatty]

Probably all of them but i dont see any admissions of mistakes coming from your neck of the woods which i'm sure irritates some ppl.

I'm sure you've already read this.

[DJ Premier]

You can't talk about friends wronging you with the lead pipe, because the moment they pick up the lead pipe and swing, I would suggest the "friendship" is forfeited...so now you're no longer dealing with a friend.

Exactly. But the only ppl armed with lead pipes are the admins. And there are those who have already suggested the friendship with Mmmm forfeit because the pipe was swung at them or a buddy of theirs.

 

On the topic of respect, we have had that discussion before. Respect is respect only if it is given both ways. If respect is demanded and not earned it is not really respect. But lets not get into that one again since its availabe to read if we really wanna dig it up.

 

But what IS interesting is that the same ppl who supported the "ban on sight" rule before are now coming out of the woods and moderating their views. It makes me certain that we have 3 types of ppl among us:

 

1) Those who agree just to agree (man, that members only country club golf course sure is nice!)

2) Those who disagree just to disagree (man, i will break the rules because they are there!)

3) Those who disagree because there is purpose (man, somethings wrong, lets get to the bottom of it!)

 

Which would you rather be? We all know where I stand.

[Fatty]

We should visit the topic of respect, lest we forget some basic concepts.

 

Now we're stuck with who should be more respectful, or who should show respect first? I ask you this: If you walk into my house, as my guest, who should be the first to show respect? The best answer is both, however, it should be the guest's first and foremost agenda, if they are a person of respect, to show it to whomever their host is. You don't just walk in and look around for people to respect you. Respect has to be earned.

 

So, either you accept the fact that the first move of respect is the guest's, or you don't. We are readily working on ways to "share the rules" with the newcomers in a way that doesn't leave them without a chance. We are brainstorming ways to deal with this communication, and a plugin is being written to make it clear cut for what rules are being broken and still give them a chance to abide by them.

 

However, this thread is not about the newcomer, it's about the regular. Now, let's call this guy a friend instead of a guest (guest being the first-timer on trop). Now we're looking at some friends standing in the street or stomping around the house saying "respect me and I'll respect you." As a home owner, you have certain rules about your household...many are common sense. For example, don't drive your car in my lawn. That's an issue of respect, right? Am I disrespectful if I come out onto my porch after you've parked in my grass and say, "Hey moron, get your car out of my grass?" Then, even after such an incident, we have the regular who will park one tire of his car on the grass. When it's brought up, he demands more respect. In bringing it up, we are not respecting him?

 

What exactly do you see as our duty of respect here?

 

If it's admining the server with a little more patience and more communication, then I can tell you we're working on that as we speak. After that, what's left?

 

The vast majority of the duty of respect falls on the guest. When the guest earns respect, and practices it, then wow does Mmmm look happy and friendly to them. If your eyes see Mmmm as tyranical and disrespectful, then I would argue that your duty as a respectful guest has been overlooked, and it's not the host's responsibility to disregard that and play nice.

 

So, we come back to the question of rule breaking by regulars. Should we really have to tell a person not to park on the grass when we've told them before, and there are signs saying "No parking on the grass?" What you're saying, if you voted for "verbally warn the regular" is saying that each day, when the friends come over, you should continually and patiently explain to them that you'd like them to not park on the grass, even one tire, and that this should continue forever.

 

Some hold onto the phrasing of the "No Parking on the Grass!!!" sign. Should it really read: "Please, do not park your car here?" While the admin looks at it and says, it should be common sense not to park on the grass, and we've already told this guy not to, the disgruntled regular says: "I'm gonna park on the grass until that bastard respects me...and then, only then, after he's shown me some nice friendliness when I step out onto his lawn, I won't park my car here anymore."

 

So it has to happen like this:

A) Regular/visitor shows respect

Host returns respect

 

If you can show me an incident where an admin started with

 

A) Admin shows disrespect

 

then it truly IS an issue. WAr was unbanned because it was unjust. There's no denying that that situation right there was uncalled for.

 

But what I hear as an expectation is this:

 

A) Regular shows disrespect

Host shows respect

 

or further:

 

A) Host shows respect

Visitor returns respect

 

In this last situation, which is what I think you're looking for, I would ask you to give me an example of how we DON'T do this. If we DON'T then we go back up to the initial admin disrespect, and we are in the wrong. However, I don't think that's the case. I believe by offering a public server, incorporating rules on the motm and the /showrules plugin, having messages come up often with rules, we are being VERY respectful in giving everyone fair warning of what is expected.

 

I've said an awful lot, sorry to ramble, but I'll leave you with one more point. Each member of Mmmm pays $100 or more annually for clients to freely play on our server. If that's not the first step, combined with the above efforts of disemminating the rules, of extending respect and fairness, then I don't know what is. I would then continually go back to the same argument: It's in the hands of the visitor to be the first to show appreciation through respect.

[Fatty]

Also, I see about 1/3 of the people saying "I don't like these choices." If you voted that way, I would ask for your thoughts in how to handle regulars breaking rules.

[dwEEziL]

I personally feel that rules should be the same across the board for new visitors or seasoned veterans. Depending on the offense, I think the reaction should be different. For swearing or bad attitude, I definitely thing a warning or two should be given.

 

For veterans, maybe just one because they know the rules and that is the tacit first warning. I mean, everyone has bad days and sometimes need a buddy (admins can be buddies too) to just say "Hey man, you are getting a bit out of hand. Relax a bit" too get them to realize that they are being a donkey. Now that doesn't explicitly say, "This is your 2nd warning for bad attitude (1st being your pre-knowlege of the rule). Once more and you will get kick/banned" but it doesn't have to. Regulars will know and if they can't figure it out, the deserve a timeout so they can sit and think about it.

 

Now visitors on the other hand come in 4 categories. One, truly helpless n00bs who know no better and repeatedly tk/ff, camp at inopportune times, don't walk and give away position, etc. These people are fairly easy to determine and should be given more leniency until they are more acclimated to the community. But after the warnings, even the n00bs should get a rocket in the pooper now and then. Two, those visitors who just come in to cause random mayhem. Again, quickly determined and dealt with with extreme prejudice. Three, the regulars or ex-regulars that come in under alias to cause random mayhem. These are harder to determine because, knowing the rules, they know best how to play at the grey areas and cause mischief without setting off blaring klaxxons. While these are the ones that repeatedly apologize for "accidental" tks, they also often eventually give themselves away by going crazy right before they are ready to disconnect. These usually get their names/wonids posted and the admins take care of them.

 

Forth is the visitor who knows how to read the rules, respect them and act properly in a team-oriented game server. These people usually are quick candidates for "regulars".

Edited June 27, 2003 by dwEEziL

[Guest zerodamage]

Also, I see about 1/3 of the people saying "I don't like these choices."  If you voted that way, I would ask for your thoughts in how to handle regulars breaking rules.

 

 

Maybe this: Is there a way to log a particular type of kick or warning of a wonid or person and after so many "swear" warnings there is a temp ban and then maybe the next time a perm ban, maybe have a menu pop up for the person being warned so they can not say they didn't know. The person chooses apologize or "hell no" which will result in an instant ban or whatever.

 

I guess it sounds sort of extreme but then again your server is full 100% of the time and it is very popular and this would satisfy those who thi nk warning are there and those who want instant results (the guilty party will have to achknowledge the menu and warning in like 10 seconds or be temp banned).

 

I am sure there is someone that can script something like this or this can be requested by someone who makes these plugins.

 

Just an idea.

[Fatty]

You're coming close. Part of the plugin being designed does in fact involve a popup screen similar to the /showrules result.