Restrict the Fast Awp_Switch?

[BIGSHaW]

I think Fatty tries to make Rainbow Six out of CS....

I myself a Rainbow Six junkie and over the time have come to terms with CS - its intended for fun NOT for SIMULATION so as long as the speeds are the same its all good. Besides Fatty, I could get a model that wouldn't even take place or show anyanimations, just a box on the buttom of the screen with the picture of the gun, that changes colour from red to yellow and green instead of showing actuall animations...I mean it doesn't matter how it looks from ur PC at home, as long as in-game we have same advatnages and conmpete solely on the skillz learned

[DJ Premier]

Errr....what a strange thread. I didn't even know this was here until now. Anyways, I agree with everyone but fatty.

 

I thought everyone already knew why ppl fast switched. It's been done since at least 1.0 from what I remember. In fact, I don't even remember why I started doing it. It certainly wasn't to fire faster. I wasn't even aware that at one point it DID let you fire faster. Everyone has their own reasons for switching to pistol and back when using an AWP. But let me respond to some allegations made in this thread:

 

You say.....

 

1) It's not realistic.

 

There are far more things unrealistic about the game than this simple thing. If you want more realism, set gravity to 1000+ and make sure ppl lost 90% of their health when jumping from the aztec bridge to the water below. Put in that "bleeding" mod and make each bullet from any gun do 50-100 damage.

 

2) It let's you fire faster

 

It seems to be proven that it doesn't.

 

 

Since #2 has been invalidated, what is the purpose of using this plugin? It seems more an attack on a player's choice of weapon than an attack on fair play. Is this why this plugin is proposed? To make sure ppl use a particular gun a specific way and only that way? Ppl say it would be more "realistic". Hmmm, before installing an untested, unsponsored third party plugin that isn't fully tested and having people argue, I would suggest starting with "amx_rcon sv_gravity 1200" to add "realism" before there is concern about how a rifle is reloaded during a weapon change.

Edited September 26, 2003 by DJ Premier

[Fatty]

I know the thread is long, but did you read it all before you said what I say?

[Fatty]

Oh, by the way, if we're going to all accept that it doesn't fire fast....

 

How do we know this, or is it just what one believes vs. what another believes?

 

How long should it take?

 

Is there data that says it takes just as long? If not, then at this point we're both still thinking.

[DJ Premier]

I think my position still stands even if it DOES let you fire faster. It is not an exploit, if it were, it would have been fixed by now. It's not like it's rocket science for valve to patch this. I equate this to learning the recoil level of the AK, the inaccuracy of the mp5 at long range, that jumping from dust2 B ledge will cost you health but if you run down w/o jumping, it wont hurt..., that if you fire the AK while in the motion of crouching, you will get 2 bullets off at the exact target before recoil kicks in, that u can fire at a 70 degree slant against the wall at dust2 Long A from the ramp and hit the guy behind the box on the right side, etc.

 

Learned skill/preference to get the most out of the weapon, the map, the situation.

 

Hmmm...i forgot what I was arguing. What are we arguing about? Whether switching to pistol after firing an awp and then back is illegal?

[Magruter]

I think it helps some people to fire faster, some awps out there sound like a deagle.

[dwEEziL]

I don't see how it's an "exploit" because it helps people out. Anybody can bind a key to do this, there is no bias towards newer people. Granted, some new cs players don't quite grasp the concept yet, it's still there for them.

The binding the key to do it is the issue I have. Doing it all manually is one thing but when you bind it to do it (bind a key to do 2 "prevweap") for you, that is when I take umbrage. At this point, it isn't an "acquired skill" anymore but a coded/downloaded skill.

Edited September 26, 2003 by dwEEziL

[Fatty]

So is our new definition of exploit: anything that is fixed. I don't know how valve works or how they get their feedback and changes that need to be made...maybe that's a start. Dunno.

 

Like I said above, in case you late-commers missed it: I'm not fighting for a plugin, that's not necessary, and I definitely wouldn't come topside to debate such a controversial plugin just to slap in on and watch your reaction. I merely asked you for your views...and I got the views, the emotion, and the kitchen sink.

 

There are so many conclusions to be drawn from this entire thread, however none are very sound except our personal POV. All come with qualifiers and conditions, each has an argument and a counter-argument.

 

Thanks.

 

.

[DJ Premier]

I don't see how it's an "exploit" because it helps people out. Anybody can bind a key to do this, there is no bias towards newer people. Granted, some new cs players don't quite grasp the concept yet, it's still there for them.

The binding the key to do it is the issue I have. Doing it all manually is one thing but when you bind it to do it (bind a key to do 2 "prevweap") for you, that is when I take umbrage. At this point, it isn't an "acquired skill" anymore but a coded/downloaded skill.

You've stepped in a much larger issue with this comment. The idea of "configing" goes way way beyond the scope of awp fast-switching. You can config your AK fire button so you never spray and pray and that's just the tip of the iceberg. Configing to gain a specific advantage in the game, to me, is highly disreputable. Mapping identified keys within the original keymap to a single command is fine by me. For instance, hitting the "previous weapon" button to switch weapons is a perfectly valid config. But having a bind to "switch to primary, scope once, fire, then switch back to pistol" in a single command is the same as cheating. My rule is that unless it's a buy script or radio command script, if you have more than 1 command bound to a single key, it is configing and you are a complete and utter cheating loser if you do that.

[dwEEziL]

and there are numerous X-hairs out there that let you see the whole screen while zoomed with an AWP. all of the black area is gone and its just the regular screen.

I personally feel zoomed x-hair replacements like this is a cheat and definitely gives an advantage that no everyone can have or acquire with practice.

[General J]

The real issue becomes tho, why has noone really answered the question of what they are using?  Moss has, but noone else really.  What is "fast switch"?  answer that and what you do to really lay it out there.  If you can't, or feel you can't, then maybe you're experiencing the issue.

Everyone has pretty much answered what they are using. You do not, Don't, in no way, DO NOT need one of those scripts (which have been around for years, see nextwish.org) to be able to do this. You simply go to your options, controls, and assign the desired key (mine being mouse3, the wheel) to do last weapon. You start a round, bring up the awp (or other gun) then pistol, knife, nade, etc. whatever you wish, and then all you have to do is press the assigned button and it goes between the two. Very easy to do. Nothing complicated about it at all. When you see people switching between the knife and a gun at spawn, this is what they are doing.

 

As for the speed of firing, I do not think that this speeds up the rate in any way. I back my case up, not with the awp and pistol, but with the m4a1 and the usp. When you toggle the silencer, and the hit your last weapon button, you get rid of the noise of the silencer being screwed on. BUT, when you switch back to the weapon that you were putting the silencer on, try to fire.. You can't. It still has a delay for putting on the silencer. If you really want to check the speed on firing an awp, having a new bullet chambered and fired against firing an awp, switching to pistol, switching back, zooming and firing again, I am sure anyone here would be willing to jump in an empty server to demonstrate it or would be more than happy to make a demo of this.

 

Yes, you can see what is going on around you, but more importantly you can defend yourself from close range attacks when you switch back to the pistol. You can also move much faster with pistol than with awp. Also I have seen people use the bomb or nade to silence the reverb from firing the awp. It stops the sound of the shot so you can hear footsteps again. That would be more of an exploit to me than the pistol issue.

[General J]

I don't see how it's an "exploit" because it helps people out. Anybody can bind a key to do this, there is no bias towards newer people. Granted, some new cs players don't quite grasp the concept yet, it's still there for them.

The binding the key to do it is the issue I have. Doing it all manually is one thing but when you bind it to do it (bind a key to do 2 "prevweap") for you, that is when I take umbrage. At this point, it isn't an "acquired skill" anymore but a coded/downloaded skill.

Dweez.. that isn't coded in any way. IT IS IN THE OPTIONS MENU UNDER CONTROLS. NO SKILL IS NEEDED TO MAKE A KEY TO PREVWEAP. THE GAME WILL DO IT FOR YOU! YOUR DEFAULT KEY IS Q I BELIEVE. SO IN THAT CASE, THEY ALREADY GIVE YOU A KEY TO DO IT!

[dwEEziL]

Does this save any time ? No. Why do i do it? Its consistent, my aim never changes and no animation of the weapon coming out is done. The delay is there but animation isnt.

Ok, now I am a little confused. I have hud_fastswitch set to 1 and I have a script that enables me to use that setting with my mouse wheel so I don't have to select gun/enter to get it. But I still see the animation when I pull my weapon out. What is done differently so that the animation is not show?

[General J]

The animation is always shown, except occasionally between deagle and other guns but there is still the delay for the animation. But the fastswitch option doesn't mean that you have the boxes that you must roll through the press fire to select the gun. It just automatically pops up when you scroll through with the mouse.

Edited September 26, 2003 by General J

[dwEEziL]

I don't see how it's an "exploit" because it helps people out. Anybody can bind a key to do this, there is no bias towards newer people. Granted, some new cs players don't quite grasp the concept yet, it's still there for them.

The binding the key to do it is the issue I have. Doing it all manually is one thing but when you bind it to do it (bind a key to do 2 "prevweap") for you, that is when I take umbrage. At this point, it isn't an "acquired skill" anymore but a coded/downloaded skill.

Dweez.. that isn't coded in any way. IT IS IN THE OPTIONS MENU UNDER CONTROLS. NO SKILL IS NEEDED TO MAKE A KEY TO PREVWEAP. THE GAME WILL DO IT FOR YOU! YOUR DEFAULT KEY IS Q I BELIEVE. SO IN THAT CASE, THEY ALREADY GIVE YOU A KEY TO DO IT!

Re-read my post J. I said a script that binds one key to do 2 prevweap (or whatever the command was). This would switch quickly from, say, the awp, to the deagle, then back to the awp. Previously, this was used to avoid the reload and allow the person a quicker shot.

 

I have nothing against a person hitting the prevweap key twice in quick succession.

[Fatty]

Opened the topic about as fast as I closed it. Seems like most of us can have a nice conversation.

 

I agree with DJ. Many scripts are borderline cheat....too much help. Wait, I'm the only one DJ disagreed with. I hate him, and everything he says is false. Ok fine, I didn't mean that last part.

 

I also believe making use of stopsound is cheating. Can everybody do it? Yes, but that doesn't mean it's not cheating.

 

J touched on this, and even noted it within his defense of the fast-switch.

 

So lets summarize:

 

You see more (check)

You hear less of shot (check)

It's faster (undetermined, unproven either way)

Can be done with or without bind (just as easily?)

You are aiming a gun with another gun during all of this (check)

Everyone can, with practice, do this (check)

Not realistic (check) <--humor me, I know it's not the only unrealistic part, let's not bury that again

[General J]

ahh ok. I missed the 2 there. Didn't ever think about that. But, I really don't see the point in that though. There would still most likely be a delay, and you would more or less be screwing yourself over since you wouldn't be able to get to your pistol if needed without hitting another key. I guess I don't understand the need for that one.

[dwEEziL]

The animation is always shown, except occasionally between deagle and other guns but there is still the delay for the animation.  But the fastswitch option doesn't mean that you have the boxes that you must roll through the press fire to select the gun.  It just automatically pops up when you scroll through with the mouse.

Hmm, some of the previous posters were saying that the animation was not there. If the "fastswitch" in this discussions is just referring to the ability to switch weapons without having to select the weapon then hit enter/fire to "equip" it, then I don't have a problem with it. But I know there is a different "awp fastswitch" thing out there and this what I thought the thread was about.

[Fatty]

Fast Awp Switch, Awp FastSwitch, same thing? I think what you though is what we're talking about, I thought thinking.

[YoMamma]

It's faster (undetermined, unproven either way)

This can be proven. I originally thought it was logged to be taken out but after checking into this myself, the only change I noticed that may be it was this:

 

- Added code to force "sv_clienttrace 1" on the server

 

Ill link the site to everything that was ever changed in CS so maybe someone can find if the fast-switch bug exsists. If it doesnt exsist on this list then its proven that the bug was never removed or that it never really worked.

 

CS Updates

Edited September 26, 2003 by YoMamma

[DJ Premier]

You are aiming a gun with another gun during all of this (check)

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with this.

 

For instance, I can aim with the deagle, align the target, hit the 1 key, hit fire to select the primary weapon, scope once by hitting my middle mouse button and fire the primary weapon using the primary mouse button and I can do this pretty fast. Yes, if its configed to do this in a single command, then there's a problem.

 

If manual, I consider this a learned skill.

 

Regarding awp fast switching,

 

Here's a scenario. Map = dust2, I'm at A as a CT with an awp. I have 1 guy coming from long A, 1 from mid A and one through spawn. I'll aim my awp down long A, shoot him, switch to pistol (so i can see my surroundings), jump, turn, find target, switch to awp, scope and fire at the guy coming from spawn, switch to pistol (so i can run faster), run around the bombsite and align myself to hit the guy coming from mid A, switch to awp, align target, scope and fire.

 

I've seen countless ppl doing this and most of us here can. I would use the same tactic using an m4, except I dont have to zoom.

 

I don't see how this is an exploit. I fast switched in order for me to realign myself better with the guy coming spawn after hitting the long A target since its easier to see and realign when not scoped with an awp.

 

I also use this tactic to avoid the double zoom, which i rarely use. I don't see why I need to double zoom after single zooming, before I get to see my surroundings in order to acquire the next target.

[san`]

I believe Fatty asked about the quick zooming and firing awp after using the deagle crosshairs. This is done by pressing your secondary fire key and milliseconds after pushing your primary fire. This sometimes gives the illusion that you are in fact no scoping, however the scope is up just long enough to fire an accurate shot.

 

I think that's what you were asking about.

[DJ Premier]

I believe Fatty asked about the quick zooming and firing awp after using the deagle crosshairs. This is done by pressing your secondary fire key and milliseconds after pushing your primary fire. This sometimes gives the illusion that you are in fact no scoping, however the scope is up just long enough to fire an accurate shot.

 

I think that's what you were asking about.

Yeah, I know he meant that...but in order for you to do this manually, you would have to do the following:

 

hit prevweapon button

hit scope button and fire button almost at the same time.

 

That means you need to have 3 buttons.

 

if you can do this using 3 buttons on your keyboard/mouse, then I think it's perfectly legal. Any less keys/buttons to do this then its illegal.

 

EDIT--------

 

Come to think of it, after you do this, you should be in zoom mode after you are done. If you are not, then you must have either hit the zoom button twice after firing to get back to normal mode or have switched to another weapon.

 

I'm going to be on the lookout for this. If I see ppl are not in at least zoom mode after doing an "appeared" no scope, then I'm gonna ask questions about their config, cuz that will appear as though he is "configing".

Edited September 26, 2003 by DJ Premier

[General J]

It's faster (undetermined, unproven either way)

This can be proven. Im too lazy to do it myself, but if you were to reinstall 1.5 update from 1.4, after the instalation, it lists what was changed in the update. The 'fast-switch' no longer being faster was one of the changes.

Looked on CS-Nation for this in the updates list, but failed to find it. Dunno if this is true or not. So I can't argue either way.

[san`]

I was just going back to answer his question because I didn't see that it was answered yet.